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Tamers in PvP

Discussion in 'UHall' started by chad, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. de LEET ed

    de LEET ed Slightly Crazed

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    Pvpers RULE! Tamers are DROOLers!!
     
    #51 de LEET ed, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
    randy likes this.
  2. Demonic Taste

    Demonic Taste Adventurer

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    Keep ur pet in the stable or trammel where it belongs.. they say chivalry is DEAD (but its a skill in game lol) but you also want your pet to guard you against other players??? Not all forms of combat need to be good everywhere, pets are so good in pvm and they don't have to be meta in pvp to be balanced in this game, maybe try playing for yourself if you want to succeed
     
  3. Pawain

    Pawain Grand Poobah
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    Look above the reason has arrived!
     
  4. aghori

    aghori Visitor

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    less pets in pvp? good riddance!
     
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  5. randy

    randy Journeyman

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    I fully support tamer updates great idea.
     
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  6. Max Blackoak

    Max Blackoak Certifiable
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    this kind of a reply could be given every tamer complaining about pets not doing enough damage in pvp: "then don't be an all kill shouting tamer"

    I, however did not do that, which is why I am a little confused why you would give such an nonreflective reply to someone who tried to point out that tamers and pets can indeed be used in pvp with the right set up...
     
    #56 Max Blackoak, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  7. Max Blackoak

    Max Blackoak Certifiable
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    so what? archers were nerfed and their armor ignore damage is capped at 30 a well. you still see archers in pvp though, right? and they don't have 700+ hitpoints, a mana pool of several hundred and 120 realskill in every skill available to them beyond the 720 skill cap...

    did you ever try to use a pet with 190 dex and see how that follows you around? dex impacts movement speed and is capped at 190 (pretty sure you knew that - just mentioning it for those who don't)

    Humility spawn is kind of a bad examplte too because you won't see non-consensual pvp there.

    that is true. you need 120 weaponskill and at the very least 60 tactics to do both, primary and secondary special moves and be able to hit your target at least every once in a while. As a caster there are certain minimum requirements for skills to be effective in pvp as well... so far nothing unusual.

    IF you want to have vet on your template yes, although I believe the minimum requirement for resurrecting a dead pet is 80 vet and 80 lore... now I have NEVER seen any of the actually successful PvP tamers use vet on their template. They usually invis somewhere when their pet is taking too much damage and log out and back in, or they have a peet summoning ball and use it off screen to save the pet. Should the pet really die they carry pet res potions.

    This is what I was talking about earlier: tamers need to revisit their templates if they want to pvp as a tamer. You can't show up on a regular PvM tamer template. You'll have to make sacrifices somewhere to make room for skills that help.

    Also saying that those points are wasted when your pet gets stuck or is dead is like saying a dexxers skill points are wasted when he dies or stuck on a tree...well yeah, in a way they are, but...that's part of the game and up to that point the skill points were not wasted.

    actually it's not that easy (see above): pet summoning balls, insta log out etc. all make it rather hard to actually kill a pet if the tamers know what their doing

    Here's the thing: they DO!
    If the pet has magery it WILL curse it's target, heck it will even teleport right next to it and attack with it's 120 wrestling, tactics, anatomy doing actualy damage (unlike a player mage!)
    If it's a necro pet it will cast it's necro spells on it's target and do damage/debuff the player.
    If it's a melee pet it WILL dismount (as long as the tamer is dismounted) and it will disarm if it was trained with the respective special abilities. Even a PvM cu sidhe will bleed a player when it attacks.

    And the pets will do all this autonomously while you can focus on doing damage with the rest of your skill points!

    What pets have you used in PvP? What templates did your character use along with the pet's template? Again, you can't expect to do huge ammounts of damage with a PvM build. Those are meant for PvM. For PvP you need a PvP build and with that you will realize that you actually will do significant damage.

    The navigate through obstacles, yes. Some do a better job at it, others don't. Just like players (CC vs EC for example, or dexxer vs mage).

    The keeping up with a tamer I explained above (190 dex, or use a ridable pet and dismount for the attack - yes I have seen this successfully being used). Keeping up with it's prey is where again the pet template plays a role. Most PvP pets I have seen use magery and thus will teleport right next to their target or they will use ranged spells.

    true, non garg tamers are on foot. that leaves you two options: either play a garg tamer in pvp, or make up for the dismount problem by adding either hiding and stealth to your template, and/or ninjitsu (smoke bombs, animal forms). And these are only the most basic options (read the thread on UHall about invis and teleport items to see more evolved options). Dismount is death when you don't have a way to counter it. Every PvP template needs ways to counter dismounts - that is true whether you play a dexxer, an archer, or a caster. Why should tamers be exempt from this?

    First of all, who is "They"? Second of all you misunderstood something here. "They" never said they did not want pets in PvP. What "they" said was "they" don't want overpowered pets and tamers in PvP, where all they have to do is say all kill and their opponent has no chance of survival (instakill or inability to dodge the attacks).
     
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  8. Pawain

    Pawain Grand Poobah
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    Many of the posters in this thread. You can read.

    Good points.

    Now show me a pic of a tamer with a pet in PvP. Shouldn't be hard to find one since you say it can be done. I do not mean one that was working a spawn and was raided. A tamer actually fighting other players for fun.

    There were some before the nerfs.

    Only 3 tamables are capable of over 150 dex. None are mountable.

    Cant make it from stable to bank without getting hung.

    upload_2018-2-11_17-42-9.png

    Now he is hung on a tree.

    upload_2018-2-11_17-56-23.png
     
    #58 Pawain, Feb 11, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  9. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Honestly ...... The reason for the whole Red business in the first place was done in an effort to curb anti-socialistic behavior... so quite honestly if you weren't being anti-social and trying to kill people who would much rather mind their own business and do their thing gathering scrolls that have to be farmed in a place that subjects you to anti-socialistic rabid animal behaviors... you wouldn't be there... but since some sick person thought that it'd be fun to make it so normal people who aren't anti-socialistic have to subject themselves to this behavior to get the scrolls or have to pay stupid insane FAR too high prices to get them... fine whatever... not my idea of fun to be shot down when I'm mostly dead already and have someone giggle over my corpse thinking they are all that because they killed someone who had ZERO opportunity to defend themselves.... and I'm supposed to "enjoy" that????? you have a problem with my attitude?

    Hey I'm all for PvP... when it's REALLY PvP and not just PK ganking... Please don't confuse the two.

    PvP is or was the sort of thing that we would often do in RP for real RP reasons, be it defending a town, rescuing someone, defending the jail and keeping a prisoner in prison etc... Fel Gate was a good place to hone skills in this... old Factions were ok at it if you didn't have a bunch of cheats... But anymore there are more people using scripts of some sort than actually use skill.

    But hey if you desire nothing but killing other players... at least do it for real reasons... which is the enjoyment of PvP but there is no real PvP in killing a defenseless person just to say you killed them..

    I never give counts for Lame shots like that... I won't give the satisfaction of bantering in Gen Chat either about it...

    A real Red is someone who does it for the challenge of skill... There is NO Challenge in killing a tamer at a spawn with one shot... That's not talent or skill that's just patience...
     
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  10. Max Blackoak

    Max Blackoak Certifiable
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    First of all thank you for actually considering the points made. I am not interested in telling people "you suck" or "you don't belong here". I am trying to make a point though and I believe most people who say pets have been nerfed out of PvP are taking a wrong approach or have wrong expectations.

    I don't have pics of them but there are two I see on a regular basis:

    One uses a nightmare with necromage ability and built his template around the glenda with mysticism, 100 hiding, enough stealth and ninjitsu to be safe when on foot. Before the nerf this setup had a chance to kill players with one hit. It still works after the nerf. He claims that this template works for both, PvP and PvM by the way. He sometimes also uses a lesser hiryu and a ki-rin but I am not sure what templates he uses on those pets.

    The other one uses a stealth archer template (heavy crossbow for dismounts) along with a 5 slot ninjitsu lesser hiryu. It's funny when he sicks his pet on people because the pet will disappear (hide) and stealth over to the target to attack.

    i never said they had to be both.

    pet auto navigation could probably use a bit of improvement. Then again, CC players also get hung on trees, blocking items like twigs (even worse because they rubber band you, causing the client to lag) etc. This thread was about the pet nerf though and pet navigation has not been nerfed to my knowledge.
     
  11. Max Blackoak

    Max Blackoak Certifiable
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    I think it is useless arguing with you about this at this point. PKs and whether or not their behaviour is anti-social and deserves to be penalized by making pets PK killing machines was not part of the initial topic. You seem very much set on your opinions and unwilling to listen to points people make. Have a good day.
     
  12. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Poobah
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    But isn´t that like saying "Tamers have no place in PvP. Only dexxers with taming on or mages with taming on should be viable in PvP."?
    I know balance wise it´s hard but if it could be coded then perhaps the power of the pet could be based on the skills on the player or something like that.


    Oh, and it wouldn´t be me if I didn´t point out how this is yet another example thread of how PvPers come here and make complaining/suggestion threads about anything but the illegal programs used in PvP.
    Funny isn´t it...
     
  13. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    well yes. a dexter with only 220 skill points, or a mage with only 220 skill points also wouldnt have any success in pvp. A tamer with a pvm pet wont have much sucess in pvp, just like dexter using pvm weapons wouldnt.
     
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  14. Max Blackoak

    Max Blackoak Certifiable
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    what would a tamer with taming look like in your opinion? Are you saying animal taming, animal lore and veterinary alone should be enough to enable a character to PvP?

    There are basically two classes in UO: warriors and casters. The warriors focus on doing their damage mainly with their weapons, while the casters mainly do their damage by casting spells. This decision between two approaches is also what tamers have to make. The vast majority prefers to combine caster types with taming. Some people use the warrior-tamer approach. Both work well, while both have their advantages and disadvantages in PvM. Along with that you have to decide whether your pet should be the one dealing the major damage while you supplement it's damage with your skills, or the other way around.

    Just like a warrior or caster has to tailor their template and suit to PvP the tamers have to do the same. What is so hard to understand about that? This doesn't mean that tamers are useless in PvP, it means they are either better or worse suited for PvP depending on their template.

    You mean a pet should be able to automatically adapt to whatever skills the opponent has?
    The way it is now every PvP template has certain weaknesses. Now if pets would be able to automatically adapt and exploit whatever weakness their opponents has...that would be a bit overpowered don't you think?

    Correct me if I'm wrong but the issue discussed in this thread is taming in PvP (as the title says), not illegal programs in PvP. Maybe that's why this issue hasn't been discussed here...
     
    cobb likes this.
  15. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Keeper
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    I just came back after 1yr 3months break (Yes, I kept paying my account so nothing lost).
    I was ready to buy some pet stable tokens so I could try some new tamables.
    Logged on my tamer and put half a dozen of my best pets on a friend. It was laughable.

    What's most laughable to me now was entertaining the idea of buying pet stable tokens.
     
  16. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Arguing with you is moot... especially since you never understood my sarcastic response in the first place.
     
  17. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Certifiable

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    pets were viable pre publish, now pets are not. Original publish they were OP, now nerfed and nonexistent in pvp. Not sure what there is to argue about
     
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  18. chad

    chad Sage
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    Well said.
     
  19. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Poobah
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    Aye, Taming, Lore and Vet and whatever else they fill their temp up with. But with the pet being the primary weapon.

    I´d say there´s three damage classes in UO.
    The warriors uses their weapons, the casters use their spells and the tamers use their pets. All three should be viable in PvP.


    No, I mean the pet´s power could be based on the owner´s skills.
    For example, if the tamer only has Taming, Lore and Vet and no other "damage skills" the pet´s power would be optimal. But if the tamer had Taming, Lore and Vet plus Eval and Magery the pet´s power would be lesser.


    You´re not wrong. You missed my point though.
     
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  20. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Certifiable

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    that's actually not a bad idea
     
  21. whitesmith

    whitesmith Lore Master

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    Yup
    Any pure template should have its own advantages over a hybrid template, just like hybrid templates do
     
  22. Anon McDougle

    Anon McDougle Journeyman

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    I haven't seen one complaint about OPed Bards ....
     
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  23. Syncros

    Syncros Visitor

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    Hi all, I recently came back and used to play a tamer as my fav character and like the OP said the damage now is laughable as I also accidently sic'd my pet on myself and lived even after having to type out the pet commands.

    IMO one on one the tamer should have the higher chance of survival ( I know I used to rarely die unless more then 2 after me) Only those that lived after bola dismounting was speed hackers and even on foot they ran circles around my pets.
     
  24. Max Blackoak

    Max Blackoak Certifiable
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    again, what pet did you use with what template? Since you're a returning player it might have even been an old pet that hasn't undergone any pet training whatsoever. If you want to use a pet in PvP successfully, you have to specifically build it for that.
     
  25. Max Blackoak

    Max Blackoak Certifiable
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    true and I have also yet to see bards complain that they can't PvP with their templates...
     
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  26. Anon McDougle

    Anon McDougle Journeyman

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    And i have 480 skill points invested in my Build yet i cant PVP which is fine that's my choice but i cant use my skill on a Ninja ?? cant equip my Instrument which has no mods anyway i must add another template to my build be it mage, tamer or warrior etc to even PVM give me a bards songbook with a few offensive and defensive spells a way to travel etc ... and don't get me started on Sturdy shovels being able to be used without being equipped talk about OP but do miners who use pickax complain..
     
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  27. Lord Arm

    Lord Arm Lore Keeper

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    when it come to pvp, all I know is most of my pvm templates cant compete with pvp templates, so what do u think happens when champ gets raided lol. used to hold my own but some of my pvm templates have been nerfed so bad because of disarm/moving shot, mortal ect..., theres a lot less. fighting. just my opinions.
     
  28. 805connection

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    I
    Same thing that happens to a sampire when raided. a tamer is absolutely amazing for pvm just like a bard. I have two issue with pets,

    4/6 casting
    and how much damage they can absorb.

    Summon demons, need to be buffed
    Orc Brutes Need to be buffed,
    Lesser hyrius need to be buffed,
    All summons should be buffed