1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice
  3. Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Hail Guest!,
    Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
    Dismiss Notice

Skill Masteries (Tram vs Fell)

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by Lord Gandalf, Sep 30, 2015.

  1. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Governor Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    23,692
    Likes Received:
    9,742
    I don't want your sympathy. Nor do I give a damn about Fel... It could be taken from the game and it wouldn't hurt my gameplay at all... The BIGGEST problem with many players is they feel the need to measure the game by their own "winning" standard... Sorry to inform you that most of us give a rats about your ability to PWN other players... that does NOTHING for me. I give a rats about it and never will... There is NO WIN in UO. If that's the only measure you have of having fun then I'm sorry for you.... you have my sympathy for your narrowmindedness.

    I give a rats about any of it.... if a person had the best of the best of a computer with the most uber of connections that will not make them a Winner in UO... and to be honest they will lose just as many times as anyone else. If that's how you measure winning in the game.

    Even if you have the best of the best of computers, the most uber connection the tip top of gear.... and had the template to match.... doesn't make you great... IMO it makes you somewhat of a exploiter and you honestly haven't learned to enjoy the game without having to "win".... Since I don't measure the game in winning or losing does that make me a loser? NO.

    Believe it or not I measure the game in it's "fun"... is it fun to get rolled by some twerk in Fel.... No. So do I care to do that NO..... Do I feel the need to work my ass off to exploit things and use the latest of latest gimpplate so I can call myself a "winner"? NO... If that is how you measure up I'm sorry for you. I enjoy the game for the design, deco, hording, and RP... does that mean I lose? NO still not measuring on your scales...

    I enjoy the EM events for the RP aspects of them and the enjoyment of spending time with age old friends... I enjoy role-play... I can do that with no suit, no masteries, no gear at all... does that mean I lose? NO. Am I having fun.... Yes. When it quits being fun... guess what? I'll quit.

    Do I like to be able to compete and get a drop at the EM events....... Hell Yes. Since I like Deco and Design it's nice for me to get items... Does it piss me off that some jack wad can control 6 characters on one keyboard and with one mouse all at the same time and get 2 or 3 of the drops ... Yes. Will that make me think he's a winnner? NO. I think he's a cheating scum...

    IMO if you have to go gimp to "win" you aren't winning. Your just another gimp exploit claiming uberness... yet another braggart who thinks they know everything about a game they only measure in wins and losses... Well pat yourself on the back when you have driven out the rest of the players because they can't play and enjoy the game.. in their own way without having to stoop to your "level".

    My characters build is the way it is because that is who they ARE... I don't change them up everytime there is a new gimpplate of the month.... Because that would be a lie to who they are. They slowly may evolve over time and learn new things... but I'm not going to make a Drow a Human because the human has JoAT and I want to take advantage of it. .... that wouldn't be "true" to my character... and honestly it wouldn't be "fun".

    Sometimes it's more fun to do things without all the uber gear and connection... infact to some it's more rewarding that way. So go ahead and play on easy mode if that is what floats your boat. But don't chastise others if they prefer to doggy paddle.

    If all I gave a Damn about was getting all the uber gear and items then yes.... I could probably do that.... but I don't care much for button mashing panic mode... I play to RELAX and have fun from the stresses of RL where I spend hours on end watching people at their worst... trying to help them live life a while longer. Where I have to tax my brain with concerns over precision and accuracy... Forgive me if when I come here to play UO I don't want to have to spend every waking moment worrying and stressing about how to beat a game that has no winner and no loser...
     
  2. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
    Professional Stratics Veteran Supporter Alumni Stratics Legend Dread Lord

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    17,859
    Likes Received:
    5,718
    *chuckles*
     
  3. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
    Professional Stratics Veteran Supporter Alumni Stratics Legend Dread Lord

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    17,859
    Likes Received:
    5,718
    Please leave Siege out of this discussion. Most of the real Siege players will test this when it goes live on Siege. I know who the Siege players are.
     
  4. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    884
    Fel vs Tram obtainable items is an entirely moot point since royal forged pardons came out.
    Not a single player has a red that doesn't want a red & ALL players have access to Tram items(see above reference).
    The only reason to argue for more red player perks is to draw in new players for killing(ie, powerscrolls).
    This has been and is one of the strongest arguments for red players. Stick to this, it seems to work.;)

    I can understand some folks wanting PSs in Tram but having played UO in BETA and starting the account I currently play
    since UO went public(18yr vet), I accept the Devs decision to keep them in Fel. Sidenote, all my homes are in Fel.:sword:
    I do not believe that to adapt and overcome should necessitate inclusion of programs deemed illegal in the TOS.
    UO's lack of policy enforcement has chased away far more players then any topic yet addressed in this thread.:wall:

    Seriously Kelmo?
    Your going to
    about a thread that is entirely derailed yet cry when your precious Siege is unwillingly drug into the conversation? That would be worth a chuckle if it wasn't so hypocritical.

    On that note;

    Siege Siege Siege Change Change Change Siege Siege Siege:troll:
    New Rules Siege Change Insurance Siege New Server Siege etc,......
    :devil:
     
    #104 Acid Rain, Oct 2, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2015
    Lord Arm and HoneythornGump like this.
  5. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Grand Inquisitor
    Governor Stratics Veteran Britain [BRIT]

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    4,235
    Likes Received:
    5,913
    I fell that I need to :facepalm: again.

    Please don't make me pull out the reality-bending one...
     
  6. Giggles

    Giggles Wielder of Ebil Cookies
    Moderator Professional Stratics Veteran Social Media Liaison Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter The Squirrel Empire

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,404
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    What I find amusing is the endless insults in this thread towards fel players. And yet we are the braggers... and anti social scum.. The only arguments I see against fel is "I don't like it, I couldn't care less about it, therefore special drops should never go there because I hate it."
    Here's an idea.. why don't you stop commenting on things that obviously have nothing to do with you? If fel starts getting special drops you can just buy them on a vendor. Why continue to be so hateful and venomous? I have not seen one valid reason why fel shouldn't have special drops other than "I don't ever want to go there because they all suck, and I hate them, and I'm going to make wild accusations insulting them on a personal and even psychological level."
    Cool story.. stay out of fel then. But stop trying to be so hostile against people who enjoy it, and want to see it bettered. You are the one being childish.
     
  7. Lady Kittie

    Lady Kittie Stratics EC & GL Shard Liaison
    Professional Governor Stratics Veteran Event Coordinator [MM&A] - Great Lakes

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2014
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    244
    I had originally locked this thread as it has gone from the OP to attacking others. Upon further review, I am unlocking this thread, but please, no more personal attacks on players.
     
    #107 Lady Kittie, Oct 2, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2015
  8. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Certifiable

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,856
    Likes Received:
    703
    Everyone watch out! Mesanna and Co. after taking consideration of Malagaste's opinion (because it's the only one that matters and she speaks for EVERYONE) will begin issuing bans for exploiting templates that you can create using game mechanics and also for having the best computer money can buy.
     
    cobb likes this.
  9. Mervyn

    Mervyn Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,461
    Likes Received:
    757
    no, not like Siege
    The ideal is a fel only shard with insurance, non transferrable.
     
  10. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,374
    Likes Received:
    1,586
    I wonder how valuable half the crap people farm IN TRAM would be without pvp/fel.

    Then on the flip side, the fel only shard would have to make do getting stuff instead of buying stuff from pvmers who farmed it.


    AWWW look... we need each other *hugs*
     
    cobb, Giggles and BeaIank like this.
  11. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Stratics Veteran Wiki Moderator Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,482
    Likes Received:
    376
    Lets keep it civil folks play nice together please!
     
    Riyana likes this.
  12. Riyana

    Riyana Operations
    Administrator Professional Governor Stratics Veteran Campaign Patron Event Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2012
    Messages:
    4,136
    Likes Received:
    4,406
    If anyone actually wants to discuss the skill masteries, please feel free to start a new thread as this one no longer has anything to do with them. Since this thread almost immediately turned into a hyperbolic Tram vs Fel argument and shows no signs of moving back to its original topic, I'm moving it to Spiels and Rants.
     
    Storm likes this.
  13. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
    Professional Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend K^S

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,222
    Likes Received:
    2,351
    And let's get back on the topic of skill masteries. No more tram\fel debates please. This is fair notice. If you want to talk about ideas for a better server, please start another thread and do so over there.
     
    Storm likes this.
  14. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Governor Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    23,692
    Likes Received:
    9,742
    What I said is NO MORE CARROTS for Fel... it's obvious that this tactic doesn't work.... so I'm saying NO MORE. Period. Give me one valid reason why people should have to pay someone else to obtain an item like that? And don't give me that cry about Reds can't go to tram cause we all know that you don't have 7 reds on your account... and you could go to tram any day you want.... and it's not like you couldn't get a royal pardon any day of the week either... since it's so easy now with VvV to go blue again. It's bad enough you crybabies got it so the masteries are shard bound which IMO is BAD.

    And as for the person I was talking to they only proved my point about the the attitude of folk in Fel. It's proved every day in chat while those of us who don't care about Fel are subjected to hours on end of the oh so mature talk of Fel punks... Why so hateful and Venomous? Because I can't play UO 10 min without being subjected to listening to a bunch of Fel punks curse and swear and stomp about in Gen Chat about how totally everyone sucks, how awesome their leetness is.... how lame everyone else is etc... And while Yes I could shut off Gen Chat then I can't really help anyone who Generally needs actual help in the game... nor could I sell things to folk looking for stuff, nor could I help people get a Circle etc... So why should I be subjected to hours on end of BS talk of Fel gank squad leetness day in day out is that some benefit or help to the community????? NO... So if I act like I have a reason to hate the Fel crowd that'd be a big one right there.... and yes they have been asked to go to some other channel with the banter.... but they chose to subject everyone else to their private cock fights.... they sound like a bunch of roosters in a hen house...
     
  15. Giggles

    Giggles Wielder of Ebil Cookies
    Moderator Professional Stratics Veteran Social Media Liaison Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter The Squirrel Empire

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,404
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    *Post above fixed to make more sense*
    *------What I said is NO MORE CARROTS for Trammel... it's obvious that this tactic doesn't work.... so I'm saying NO MORE. Period. Give me one valid reason why people should have to pay someone else to obtain an item like that? And don't give me that cry about Reds so I can't go to fel cause we all know that you have 7 blues on your account... and you could go to fel any day you want.... and it's not like you couldn't get a couple of friends to help you any day of the week either... It's bad enough you crybabies got it so the new mysteries aren't only available in fel which IMO is BAD.

    And as for the person I was talking to they only proved my point about the the attitude of folk in Tram. It's proved every day in chat while those of us who don't care about trammel are subjected to hours on end of the oh so mature talk of trammel punks... Why so hateful and Venomous? Because I can't play UO 10 min without being subjected to listening to a bunch of Trammel punks curse and swear and stomp about in Gen Chat about how totally everyone sucks, how awesome their trammyness is.... how lame everyone else is etc... And while Yes I could shut off Gen Chat then I can't really help anyone who Generally needs actual help in the game... nor could I sell things to folk looking for stuff, nor could I help people get a Circle etc... So why should I be subjected to hours on end of BS talk of trammel squad superiority day in day out is that some benefit or help to the community????? NO... So if I act like I have a reason to hate the Trammel crowd that'd be a big one right there.... and yes they have been asked to go to some other channel with the banter.... but they chose to subject everyone else to their private superiority fights.... they sound like a bunch of roosters in a hen house. ---------*

    Forgive me for changing your above quote ^^^. I just fixed it to make more sense.
     
    #115 Giggles, Oct 2, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2015
  16. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    884
    Understand that Stratics represents a small % of actual UO players.
    Its common knowledge most players do not come here to post.

    Understand that folks say all kinds of crazy stuff in UO chats,
    much of this is completely disregarded and ignored by most players.

    If you consider these points, which most players would agree are factual:

    Am I the only one that finds the OP's comments hypocritical since he's the one posting here to complain about Tram players?
    Complaining about wanting more things for Fel PvPers? No one came here to post saying Tram needs anything. He came here to complain :
    New Flash: This expansion was not made exclusively for PvPers. You got an entirely new revamped VvV system which saw new players try PvP briefly then leave just as fast.

    Again, to argue that Tram has things Fel players can not access is ludicrous since RFPs came out. There are no red players in UO any longer that do not wish to be red, thus making the entire game accessible to ALL PLAYERS. The only exception to this that I know is city buffs for reds, which is literally the ONLY punishment for being red currently in the game.

    If UO was serious about trying to get more players into PvP, there are much better ways to go about this then the carrot on a string method(I use this simile b/c like it or not, its fairly accurate). IMHO, they really don't care much about the small group of gamers still PvPing in UO since the vast majority do not. Yes, they throw bones every now and then but if it really helped- folks like the OP wouldn't be here crying about wanting/needing more glitter to lure players into Fel.

    PS. Thanks for cleaning up this thread. Its a shame it took you so long as I suspect you would have just let it ride if not for complaints, which reflects poorly on some mod's judgments.
     
    #116 Acid Rain, Oct 2, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2015
  17. Giggles

    Giggles Wielder of Ebil Cookies
    Moderator Professional Stratics Veteran Social Media Liaison Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter The Squirrel Empire

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,404
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    VvV was very successful when it first came out. Lots of action and promise. VvV was forced out as a fix for the broken faction system.. nothing more, nothing less. It wasn't "new" per-say. They added new rewards that could only be obtainable through the VvV system. Guess what happened at first? People flocked to fel! Tons and tons of people. We were fighting all day long, and some of those "trammies" that came to check it all out ended up becoming pvpers. Guess what happened when people got all the rewards they wanted? They went back to tram. VvV was never given the real attention it deserved. If they would have added to it, fixed the bugs, addressed the complaints, added new rewards, it would still be flourishing.

    Town buff isn't the only disadvantage to being red. Reds cannot use virtues either.. or go into several entire continents. Yea sure I can just eat a royal pardon. but I don't think I should, nor do I want to. There is nothing wrong with both facets having perks. I am not throwing a fit over the new encounter being tram only. I am not screaming to remove any tram based content because I hate the people there. All I am saying is fel should have its perks too. To argue against that is not understanding what the real Ultima Online was planned to be. Its is simply being petty and selfish.
     
    cobb likes this.
  18. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    884
    VvV was successful at 1st release due to hype, curiosity, and new rewards. It was absolutely new: new altars, new rewards, new systems, timed combat, points system, etc,... It was the same old PvP but everything about the release was new to the game. If this entirely new system couldn't keep the players it initially attracted, who's fault is that ? I think the obvious conclusion is most of these players did not enjoy UO PvP. It is not the games responsibility to force players into PvP situations to pacify a small portion of its subscriptions, regardless of how loud they cry.

    I'm not going to point fingers towards players, dev systems, rewards gotten, etc,... as an excuse why VvV has the same 20-30 players(if lucky) per shard & has drawn in very limited numbers of new players. I can say I tried it and have no where near all the rewards I wanted but still quit. I don't think periodically adding new rewards to keep the glitter tree shining that lures Trammies into Fel would help VvV to flourish. If that's what is needed to keep players PvPing, that's pathetic.

    I will concede that I missed the virtues, sorry. As for limiting a red players travels, if its that upsetting just click a pardon. It is your decision. The game has made an extremely easy solution of which you chose not to take advantage. I will not buy into the "poor me" theory of red players in UO(we cant do this, we cant do that). That time is long gone in the current game.

    My previous comments were directed at the OP that started this thread who was throwing a fit because he wanted fel exclusive perks to lure players into Fel. All the while crying it was Trammies that need to man up and stop whining. Hypocrisy at its finest.

    The "real Ultima Online", at its conception and release, had reds losing skill points upon death which they would have to regain through normal game play. It had reds being killed by guards if they came into towns. It had much more but still flourished and grew to the largest MMO in the world at that time. I know what the "real Ultima Online" was better then most, having been there in Beta and having played continually since.

    Both Fel and Tram have their perks, tho lately that line seems like a grey area and it is obviously the intention of developers to make this area cloudy. I think its petty and selfish of red players to try to force blue players into non-con PvP because their area of enjoyment has become so niche that they have no one to play with.
     
  19. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    5,374
    Likes Received:
    1,586
    Just like powerscrolls, masteries can be something for pvpers to fight for and sell the spoils.

    Most pvpers have no desire to go pvm or farm in tram, so they buy those items.

    Its like a market system... You don't want to change your oil on your own car so we run a body shop PvP) and we don't want to keep up a farm so you raise the crops and sell them (pvm). Fel play supplies one good, tram play supplies another and it creates a market system. That market system is delicate but neccesary.

    As a pvper, would I prefer to just logon, have all items I need, program some perfect armor and go pvp ? Prolly... I'd rather not pvm or do events or whatever, and I don't really.

    Pvmers don't want to PvP... Don't then, then buy what you need with the money you earn from the rest of the content we don't want to do.
     
    cobb and Giggles like this.
  20. Giggles

    Giggles Wielder of Ebil Cookies
    Moderator Professional Stratics Veteran Social Media Liaison Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter The Squirrel Empire

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,404
    Likes Received:
    2,144
    Of course no one is going to enter fel without a reason. I have spelled it out several times in this thread, but maybe I wasn't clear enough or I didn't put it in the right perspective.

    So let me start like this..
    Would you go into the middle of malas among some trees every day and stand there? No. Why? Well because there is no point to that... duh.
    Not lets dive a little more on this. Most gamers do things in the game for a point.. a reward.. right? You would not stand in a forest, or go to fel, if there was nothing there for you. Correct?

    Now me... I am a fel player.. I am a PK, a PvPer, and on some days I do PvM stuff too! I enjoy all aspects of Ultima Online. The purpose of me enjoying fel? Well I enjoy the challenge. I enjoy the ever changing action. Fighting pre-scripted and understood mobs over, and over, and over, and over, again doesn't really fuel my fun factor at all. THAT is MY reward. But your common trammel only player? They don't really care about THAT reward. But they do care about lootable and obtainable rewards. So of course they will never go stand in a forest.. or go to fel.. because there isn't anything there for them.

    Now if you provide things in fel that are not gotten anywhere else.. guess what? People will come. If you put a cool EM clicky in the middle of that forest... people will come. It has nothing to do with sheep or luring people. Its common sense. I don't enjoy killing a trammy in a sorc suit. I enjoy fighting 10+ trammys and their greater dragons because they are working together to get that reward that THEY want. We are all playing together.. and both sides are getting rewards.

    Cool story time....
    I was a PK on this one server last year. I had 2 friends that would help me fight against this large "trammel based" guild. They would come to fel and farm their own powerscrolls. Sometimes they had a lot of people, and sometimes they would only have a few. Well one day I found them spawning, and I killed 3 of them by myself. Then I see this girl in general chat... she says.. "Hey Giggles? when you are done killing that champ, can you show me how to get out of this area please? I don't know anything about t2a" Guess what I did? When the champ was dead, I ressed her and showed her how to leave the area. That one moment of my kindness sparked a friendship that I still hold very close to my heart. This girl sends me coffee irl because she knows how much I love it. We have talked on the phone.. the list goes on and on.
    My purpose of this cool story? To show that even though I enjoy playing a villain in UO "which is part of the original plans for the game" I am not a villian irl. I have so many powerful friendships from being a villain in this game. So to sit here and listen to the wild accusations clumping all fel players together as sociopaths... it really makes me sick.

    I am not immune from the PKers that aren't so nice. being a female who pvp's..... yea I have had my fair share of sandwich and abusive remarks sent my way from other pvpers. But guess what? I also have 3 pages of insults in this thread from people who don't even know me who play in tram. My point? There are a holes in all walks of the game.

    Now.. please give fel some cool rewards that cannot be obtained in tram. And lets all see what happens shall we?
     
  21. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    884
    Cool story bro. We have the same lasting friendships in Tram/Malas/Ish/TerMur forged in non-kill situations.
    I give Xmas & B-day presents every year to friends but I wont bore anyone with details.

    I would never lump all PvPers into a classification because I do not believe in absolutes (ie, all are sociopaths). I'm sorry you had
    to deal with insults & abusive remarks but apparently the Mods were on coffee break(even tho they replied in thread? weird huh?).

    Now.. Devs - please make sure that stuff isn't only obtainable in Fel because there is no reason for it other then appeasement of a small
    niche of players that feed on the weak using a current ideology Mesanna apparently said herself "Whatever you need to do to win".
    PvPers already have tons of beautiful artwork specifically designed & only obtainable for them (VvV).

    We don't need to see what happens as its totally predictable that small groups will dominate, control, and corner entire markets
    while making a fortune in UO gold. We've seen this time and time again over many years.
     
    #121 Acid Rain, Oct 3, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015
    railshot likes this.
  22. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Certifiable

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,856
    Likes Received:
    703
    You're right!

    I would hate to see people corner the EM Events and make massive amounts of gold...

    What's worth more, an EM event drop (majority or the time) or a Slither?

    Cool story bro!
     
    transcendent likes this.
  23. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    884
    Glad you agree with me :)
    It is predictable and we all have seen it happen !

    No one was talking about EM events, slithers, or most of what you said but I'm glad you agreed !
     
  24. Balinor of Pk?

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    51
    Um no. It's you that does. The population of UO was HUGE before trammel hit. Then the population of fel dwindled because all the whiners aka "trammies" were given what they wanted. A safe place to gather loot with no retribution. You think because the population of trammel is greater than fel NOW that it's because trammel is better? You really, in my opinion, have no idea what you are talking about. The appeal of the game back then, FOR EVERYONE, was the thrill of not knowing what was around every corner... And a person could just as easily make you minced meat as a monster. Now... you sit in a land, devoid of any threat, and any real fun/danger/intrigue, and act like it's the second coming. The game has died so badly since it's heyday, I can't even begin to imagine how anyone could even remotely begin to say that trammel now is more populous than fel ever was.. if that's what you're saying, you're SADLY mistaken. There was SO many pks back then, and people who enjoyed pvp, that they CREATED TRAMMEL because the minority was SO VOCAL about their displeasure over it. Like now. And all it's done is to lower the OVERALL population of UO until it's next to empty. Along with bad coding decisions like stat loss... Stat loss has never served any purpose but to annoy people who want to get right back into a fight. It's stupid, arbitrary, and had a large hand along with trammel in nearly killing UO. To refute this is just silly. It's fact.
     
    Lord Gandalf likes this.
  25. Balinor of Pk?

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    51
    It's funny you call fel pvpers a "small niche of players." I suggest you take a look at a game called Dota 2. It's essentially 5 on 5 UO pvp. It happens to be the largest E-sport in the history of E-sports at the moment. If you played it for 10 minutes, you'd see what I'm talking about.... I wonder how many of those people were UO pvpers way back when that finally found a game that appealed to them after it was destroyed by EA. And they created an industry around it. Worth millions and millions of dollars.... The last prize pool for the players was like 12 million dollars. Kinda hard to argue with 12 million dollars for a free game... And people still PAY for UO.
     
  26. Aran

    Aran Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend -A-

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2000
    Messages:
    14,763
    Likes Received:
    1,070
    That's about as relevant as saying "Look at how many people play Call of Duty"
     
    Acid Rain likes this.
  27. whiterabbit

    whiterabbit Stratics Legend
    Professional Premium Stratics Veteran Supporter Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter PITMUCK

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    7,748
    Likes Received:
    3,132
    PAX LAIR OF CHESSY WENT OUT ON VALENTINES DAZE. PASSED OUT GIFTIES TO ANY RED WE CAME ACROSS.WAS FUNZ
     
  28. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    884
    You have no idea what your talking about and obviously know little of UO history. Educated yourself before making laughable comments:coco:. More than one DEV from the time Tram came out have gone public and stated that UO was losing thousands of subs every week because of problems with UO PvP. Its common knowledge that the introduction of Tram stopped the hemorrhage of players and actually brought in more paying subs:thumbsup:.

    Agreed :beer:.

    Maybe I missed this in my reading (if I did I apologize) but I didn't see anyone claiming this anywhere. At its peak, UO had the most subs with the inclusion of Trammel. The DEVS at that time have publicly stated that the loss of players prior to Tram was staggering day by day and week by week. They introduced Tram to stop losing thousands of players and gave interviews saying it not only worked but UO got back subs they had lost. The game gained more subs after the introduction of Tram and grew to its peak of +250k subs within several years. These are the facts:scholar:.


    This couldn't be more wrong. It wasn't a minority, it was the overwhelming majority.(See my above comment).


    Again, what you call irrefutable facts are proven fallacy:dunce:. Penalties for death when being red was part of UO back when UO had +250k subs (and long before). All reds upon death would lose .1 to each major skill. This was removed due to complaints but it never proven to show any significant drop in subs. The reds just kept playing:sword:.

    I would agree that stat loss annoyed people who want to get back into a fight but there has been punishment for being red in this game since its inception. Yet, UO still grew to the largest MMO ever in it's day. I suggest you spend an hour or two researching your facts before coming on these forums to give inaccurate history lessons to players that know UO's evolution far better then yourself :thumbup:.

    Having played during and through UO's mass exodus of players from around early 2004-2006(Nov/Dec), I can tell you the single most common complaint I heard from most every person that quit playing. "I'm done with this game, its just full of cheaters anymore. UO isnt worth my time." When EA/UO declined to add PunkBuster, that was the final straw for many dedicated players:yell:.

    PS. The huge popularity of Valve's Dota 2 is due to its literally brand new Source 2 engine and its amazing PR campaign. These are 2 things EA has not even considered for UO in well over 10 years. This is also something our current DEVs and Producer have ZERO control over. This really is like comparing apples to gold bullion.
     
    #128 Acid Rain, Oct 11, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2015
    railshot likes this.
  29. LowdownandShifty

    LowdownandShifty Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    50
    UO: the game of risk and rewards.

    I'm a poor, self-sustaining Trammelite. If I want the big rewards, I have to go to fel. I just try my best to take the 'surprise' out of the pks' "surprise attack". I've died a few times. Sure... I've lost a few champ spawns to pks. Bah! But that's where the fun is: not knowing what my day holds!

    Adventure on Trammies!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  30. railshot

    railshot Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    1,063
    You really have quoted no facts. But here's one for you. You can look this one up in wikipedia. At it's peak in 2003, UO's population was 250k which is 2.5 times higher than it was before Trammel's introduction in 2000. So, the whole idea of trammel somehow drove people away does not quite agree with facts.
    And I get that you like land that is not "devoid of any threat." That's fine. Data seems to show that you are in the minority. Most of us do not like being threatened all the time. But that's OK. If only we could have our separate shards, with separate rule sets and everyone would be happy, right? Oh wait, you don't want a free for all where there are no victims. You want to force current Trammel residents to share Felucca with you. Because you know better how to enjoy the game, right?
     
  31. Balinor of Pk?

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    51
    Yes I do. And you just said a whole lot of nothing.... You basically said, go read wikipedia because it states the population of UO then and now. Ok, so where is YOUR facts? That tells me nothing. I was there, I remember. 99 percent of the people who enjoyed UO before trammel, have quit and are playing other games. You are mistaken to think otherwise. And it's a MUCH larger population than anyone at EA, Broadsword, or Origin at the time would ever admit to. I saw it first hand. I'll take my experience over a page on Wikipedia that can be edited by anyone. Some people will believe everything they read. You're acting like trammel coming out RAISED the population of UO. I was THERE. That's total bs. It didn't raise at any point after trammel was introduced. It kept declining. The ONLY time it MIGHT have increased was during faction wars. Until EA killed that too. Stat loss. What a joke. Your facts are plain wrong. Remember that you're talking to someone that was there for all this. Played on multiple shards, and ran a very popular website at the time. I know what happened.
     
  32. Balinor of Pk?

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    51
    So let me get this straight. you ACTUALLY BELIEVE that the dev team members from any time period, are in the business of telling you, the player, the truth? You are very sadly mistaken and have the wool over your eyes. They are in the business of doing and saying whatever the company tells them to do and say. Even if it's a bold faced lie. To make money. If you believe anything else, you're more blind than I thought. I was there. My recollection isn't wrong. They flat out had no idea, and lied, on a number of occasions, about what was true and what was not. Including subscription numbers and what was causing the decline of UO. It was bad programming and patch decisions after a VERY successful launch of a truly great game. When they got rid of the talent behind UO, all the decisions from that point on ruined it. I'm afraid to ask if you have children, but if you do, I'm sure giving them everything they want, instead of everything they need, is working beautifully for you. How can you say Dota 2 is not similar to UO? I play it a lot. There are a TON of similarities. If you created a map in UO, added some mongbat creeps, and towers to it, then threw 2 teams of pvpers in there to duke it out, it would almost be identical. Barring the silly technological differences. It's a new game with a 3d engine, and it's really no different since the inclusion of the new engine. I know, I just finished a game.
     
  33. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    884
    The DEVs were no longer with the game when they made their comments. They had been working on other projects for several years when approached for an interview. I have no reason to suspect they would lie about something that was several years history & they had moved on to other projects with other companies.

    I am not so inclined to disregard comments of knowledgeable & respectable game developers. Nor am I fearfully paranoid that everyone is lying. While I agree that company employees are often propaganda mouth pieces, this was not the case.

    I fail to understand your comment concerning children as anything other then a thinly veiled attempt of impertinence.

    Having never played Dota2, I can not comment intelligently on gaming similarities or lack there of. I stand behind my comments on their brand new Source 2 engine & huge PR campaign as these are common knowledge to most gamers. These 2 points alone have massive impacts on player numbers. I would think if UO had a multi-million dollar PR budget and a brand new state-of-the-art 3d graphics engine it would do just as well if not better. UO having neither, I wouldn't even attempt a comparison.

    Thank you for this insightful and colorful debate good Sir :)
     
  34. Aran

    Aran Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend -A-

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2000
    Messages:
    14,763
    Likes Received:
    1,070
    Dota2 isn't an MMO, it's a dumb little action game with no long-term growth for the individual "characters" each person plays, it's a horrible comparison, anyone making it should be summarily ignored.
     
  35. railshot

    railshot Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    1,063
    I gave you actual numbers from a reputable source. All you are giving is your opinion that the grass was greener when you were young. I am sorry if I pick wikipedia over your recollections.
     
  36. Balinor of Pk?

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    51
    Wikipedia has never been a reputable source. HAHAH It's editable by anyone...
     
  37. railshot

    railshot Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    1,063
    Right, we should trust you, a random forum poster, over numbers that have not been disputed by EA or anyone else. Because THEY lie, and you alone tell us the truth.
     
  38. Balinor of Pk?

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    51
    Pretty much... also, if you're speaking about random... your post count screams that you're the random poster... But that's none of my business I'm sure. Nice try though random poster guy! It must be nice to live in a world where you can learn everything you need to know from Wikipedia...
     
  39. Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,048
    Likes Received:
    410
    Got a few points that maybe some have forgotten, Before Tram its was Fel rules, so thats the original UO, you can argue It wasnt but it was, then Tram was created for the people who couldnt hold themselves in a game, with all respect and with no intentions of anyone getting offended, they were losers, cause the idea of the game was a sandbox to run around and you had that red player RP to be a killer and you would die, thats is normal, having separated both worlds for Tram and Fel in some ways is a step back, cause its not real or factual, as you never on edge...... ( Historical fact here, our real dark ages a few centuries ago, You could get killed by anyone that just didnt like you... the game was created following a bit of that idea....)
    Secondly, the player base is getting smaller, but the age of the new players is getting younger, UO is not here to help your 50 year old hands, they are here to provide a product that helps all, not just one lot of people, as In a previous comment I made, I made a list of item, and most of them have to be farmed in Tram, leaving Fel players merciless, What if they hadnt invented Royal pardons or pardon of any sort, it would of messed lots of people up, having them is not an excuse that we can hunt in Tram now, we might have them but not want to venture Tram, for many obvious reasons.....
    Having items in specific items on both facets helps the economy also, as some people dont want to farm or play this game, they get their kick of buying and selling stuff all day, bank sitting in luna spamming messages of crap to sell, so having items of both facets, incentives a economy and people to meet new people to trade... at the end of the game is a MMO or however this game is categorized, not just a single player game.....

    Also why is everyone soo fixated in trying to change the game to their will, Go design your own game if they only thing you know is to complain and say everything is unfair cause YOU DONT WANT TO PLAY THE WHOLE GAME!!
    There are plenty of games out there that have a single world and no PVP.......... Go play that if you are not willing to adapt cause that the biggest issue here, Its You!!
    Its not the Fel players, Its not the tram players, its you, not wanting to play the game and have things given to you in a silver platter. Plus I see many of the player spitting hate against Fel players and they are Billionaires ingame, well why dont you spend some of that cash you are holding and hoarding which in real life has no real value apart from you selling the gold for RL cash which just makes you a cheater as its not allowed to be done..... Billionaires that complain about an artie which costs 30+ Mil, which wouldnt even dent their economy..... thats lots of comments of people I can see, and even if they not billionaires, they have enough cash to buy arties or whatever they needed. If you want I will give you any artie you ask for, Now hand me 1+ Bill first and you'll have what ever..... No need for you to complain you cannot get something....


    @MalagAste I am not going to quote the whole comment you made, I understand the point you making, but Id like to know what are your ''winning standards''??
    Also why critize people for their ''Gimp templates''.... Is their own way to play, let them do it , if that makes them happy... If their template can generate them more arties and drop, you should be happy for them, not knock them down for it, they have invested time and effort to figure and in and out of the game, the skill templates and such and created a uber template, its nothing bad what they have done, the contrary, I would say they done better in a way.... They are generating while others are stuck in a backward thinking, the game does go on and templates have to adapt, playing a 12 year old template doesnt make you any better or worse than someone else, its just you play style, some people wanna kill a boss in 5 minutes and get on with their day, and some rather take an hour and possibly die as they cannot defend and fight that boss to the same level.
    From your comments I can see you dislike Fel and Id really would like to know about it... Also Id like to ask, Do you have any Crimsons? Where did you farm them or did you buy them? And please refrain from calling all Fel players anti-sociable scum cause many people play Fel and some of them are even good friends with you and some even help the whole community.... so that comment is a little out of place.... Also I play fel, Am I an anti social scum?? Do even know me? Or know what I do?? I respect everyone's right to an opinion as it should be, but I will jump if someone is generalizing a whole bunch of people... Also have you thought what Fel players might think of you? I know would really wouldnt care but I just ask for you to get in their place and their shoes....
    I hope you dont find anything I say offensive in any way, as It wasnt intended in anyways, I am just speaking openly and sometimes as english my second language I can come across very hard, so not bad feelings:)
     
  40. Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,048
    Likes Received:
    410

    If Siege got Insurance, i would be there straight away PVPing, since they have not, to costly to go train to lose stuff.. yet I still play there, But no mayor killer there lol
     
  41. Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,048
    Likes Received:
    410
    Couldnt been said better
     
  42. DJAd

    DJAd Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    9,254
    Likes Received:
    4,680
    My thoughts exactly.
     
  43. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Governor Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    23,692
    Likes Received:
    9,742
    @Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS.... Evidence I've seen would be contrary to much of what folk say about Fel and many of those who play there at least on my home shard and quite honestly I don't care about most other shards.

    I do play on Siege and enjoy Siege when I'm there.... though I find for the most part its lonely there.

    Yes everyone has their own playstyle... And while you may enjoy the "panic" play of the constant danger of someone coming and PKing you or the thrill of playing your skills against someone elses.... remember that quite a LARGE majority of players don't. I enjoy escaping all the stress of life by role-playing in a fantasy world... which I prefer to be on my own terms... and yes I like RPPvP when it has a purpose and some balance. I find no matter what it's NOT fun to be ganked by a big group of enemies when I'm all alone.... I don't find it fun to jump one lone person... I think that is cowardly and just rude.


    IMO those who can't really PvP join large guilds so they can brag about their leetness and get a free pass to be an ass and get stuff without working for it. Which is a BIG part of my disgust with Fel... I also think if you have to "cheat" to win you aren't winning... So if you have to use some 3rd party program to remove tree's and brush and to warp over every obstacle and be able to cast while moving and running and be able to hurdle 30 pots at one time etc... then well.... you aren't winning... And I'm not saying everyone in Fel does that... Though I will say that a large number of those I've encountered over the years do... That is the sort of crap I've seen. I hear much worse than that bragged about in Gen Chat all the time... about the programs used for speed etc... you see it on their video's posted on Youtube... I don't care for that. Never have never will.

    Yes I have gotten a crimmy..... ONCE after doing over 200 Travisty's, 100's of Lady M's, Dreadhorns, etc... infact it took so long and I was so unfamiliar with ever receiving such a thing that when I actually got mine off a Travisty I kept wondering why I got a piece of cloth off it... till I finally moused over it and realized what it was... I spent YEARS doing Doom with Guildmates NEVER getting a drop.... mostly because one of our members was so overly lucky that he infact one time got 2 ornies one right after the other off 2 consecutive Dark Fathers... was enough to make you want to vomit. When I finally got my first Doom arty drop it was a stinking Dragon Lance... which of course as soon as Spring Clean came about went straight in the trash...

    I do just fine getting EM drops now that they changed the way they drop to be more random among top damagers/healers etc. I play more though for the social aspect of UO than for the pixel crack... and enjoy it more for the friendships... Yes I do have some friends who enjoy Fel... infact they enjoy it a lot.... and spend quite a lot of time there.

    I don't avoid going to Fel.. Infact I own a house there. I used to go there all the time because that's where evil lived.

    Once upon a time I used to enjoy RPPvP quite a bit and did it quite frequently... wasn't too bad at it either... but after putting up with a bunch of drama and other stuff over the years that got old pretty fast. I don't play to put up with drama.

    I don't play to make megga billions in gold either.... some folk do.
     
  44. Balinor of Pk?

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    51
    Just thought I would show you why it matters. Here's a link and almost every post in it, says the exact same thing. Trammel ruined UO. You are wrong. And you don't understand why. Make sure you read the comments. There's hundreds of thousands of UO players that left because of Trammel. Way more than play currently on any US shard. Not sure of the asian shards. Make sure you actually GO TO THAT PAGE ON YOUTUBE. And read the comments.

     
    Lord Gandalf likes this.
  45. Lyconis

    Lyconis Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    508
    Likes Received:
    69
    Is it just me or did anyone else notice that the "trammie" knows that Felucca only has one L. I generally don't act as a grammar nazi but I find it funny that most people that boast about how they are so good in PVP or that Felucca is so much better or started in Felucca can't spell it. My Favorite spelling of it is fellucia. Eh it's a common mistake because the word fell or fall, sometimes it's muscle memory when typing.

    I love that the nuances or easter eggs in UO.
    fe·luc·ca
    fəˈlo͞okə,-ˈləkə/
    1. a small vessel propelled by oars or lateen sails or both, used on the Nile and formerly more widely in the Mediterranean region.
    tram·mel
    ˈtraməl/
    1. a restriction or impediment to someone's freedom of action.
    2. deprive of freedom of action.
    My favorite is a definition for Malas, as it always seemed to resemble a trailer park to me.
    ma·las
    m·läsˑ
    1. in Ayurveda, the waste products of the body, which include urine, stool, and sweat. Effective elimination of malas is said to be important for maintaining good health.
    By far my favorite easter egg in UO was a small bump map of a skull in the mountain side of ilshenar around 51' 1° N 28' 27° E. I only found it when I rendered the map in GIMP with the overlay making this map.[​IMG]
    It's slightly noticeable when you look at the map in game or with UOAM or UOCart
     
  46. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    884
    Using that fat pretentious idiot who lives in his mom garage to strengthen your accusations of anti-Trammel ruins your credibility. Check your facts.

    Devs from before (and after) Trammel was introduced have stated pre-Tram saw a massive hemorrhage of players due to many reasons. After Trammel was introduced the hemorrhage subsided, albeit to late. The mass exodus from UO started long before Trammel saw the light of day. Your link means nothing, much like anything M. Dragon has ever said. I would take the word of DEVs that no longer have anything to do with UO over that moron any day.
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  47. Balinor of Pk?

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    51
    I was there. And just like today, the devs have ZERO clue as to what is actually happening in game. For you to believe otherwise, is pure stupidity on your part. The devs then had no idea what was happening either, because they didn't have the tools to see it from the outside. The people who knew what made UO succeed were ousted long before the game started to fail. And the devs that came after had no clue. For you to say that the devs knew what was happening and did anything right to stop it, just makes you look even more silly for saying so.