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PvP dying a painful death from Tamers Online

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Cetric, Jun 18, 2017.

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  1. Lord Arm

    Lord Arm Sage

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    I know a lot were asking for new pets and mesanna agreed to give new pets. I posted would be fine as long as they are not better than greater dragons, otherwise endless revamps and nerfs ect... I thought we were getting new pets, not a whole new system, and of coarse the pets were too strong. anyone that played awhile knew this would happen. the only real fix is to nerf, if u try to do many other changes, it will be even more of a mess with endless revamps/fixes. it really is a joke what the pets can do now in pvm, let alone pvp. just my opinions
     
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  2. Keith of Sonoma

    Keith of Sonoma Babbling Loonie
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    I see on these threads that some PvP'r say/threaten to quit if this doesn't change. I wonder how many tamers will do the same if they do nerf it to the point of making all the costly "upgrades" a waste of points and scrolls? I also wonder how many more tamers there are in UO compared to PvP'rs. Perhaps the devs decided to please the (in my opinion) far greater number of players "happy". I think it's a valid discussion.
     
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  3. transcendent

    transcendent Journeyman

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    Maybe Riding Swipe should also be looked at. I know it is not a pet specific ability, but many tamers use it. When it is used in combination with these new more powerful pets, it can be problematic.

    A pure dexer with no casting skills has zero chance of getting back on mount after getting hit with it since they cannot heal their mount. Before the pet revamp, pure dexers at least had the option of trying to kill the pet, but that is not going to happen versus these new revamped pets.

    I would suggest having the effect of Riding Swipe wear off after about 10 seconds, so you can get back on mount even if your mount isn't fully healed by then
     
    #53 transcendent, Jun 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  4. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    If I remember correctly when using bolas you have to dismount
    So yes in pvp if your on a 1 slot pet and have a 4 slot or under with dismount then you should be auto dismounted at the very least better yet remove it altogether
     
  5. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Poobah
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    Have to be on foot to dismount with Heavy X-bow as well, but not sure about the Lance, last I knew you could still be mounted and hit dismount with it.. but yeah, definitely something that should have to be done in order for your pet to dismount imho.
     
  6. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Pretty sure the patch notes say that the tamer has to be on foot and not flying for dismount on pets to work... so that's already BEEN Nerfed...

    IMO if they nerf pets to the point they are just as useless as before then I can see many folk quitting over it.

    I have personally seen more people online playing since this pet publish than I have in the last 2 years... THAT speaks VOLUMES to me.
     
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  7. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Most of those players are just happily pvming, so this would have no effect on those numbers. I've yet to come across someone that said " hey I heard they revamped pets so I came back to the game to pvp with them". Yet I've heard many players say "fk this let me know when pet's are nerfed and maybe I'll come back"

    I'm sure just as many ppl invested time and effort into making the most overpowered at the time templates. I know I did. This is no different
     
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  8. Aeyko

    Aeyko Sage

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    And out of those tamers you mention, how many of them actually pvp? No one is talking about any PVM changes... But I can assure you that 90% of the posters DO NOT PVP. Yourself included. So why not make the pvp adjustmets, remove dismount since it isn't something useful in PVM nor is it logical in pvp and reduce damage output from pets.
     
  9. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I'd venture a guess that no one quits over tamers getting nerfed in PvP as long as the effects have little to no impact in pvm. Many times over the years ppl invested time and gold to build what at the time was broken and overpowered ( wod archers, plague dexers, 4/6 mages, you name it) and they didn't quit when it got nerfed because they knew it was only a matter of time before it was slammed into Oblivion. It just takes being pointed out to the devs because it's not always obvious in the surface when something like this is implemented.

    There's a vetting period, a period of time for the abuse of a system to show it's face, and then it needs to be patched accordingly. Much of this was found on test center prepub and pointed out, but I feel that they had a deadline to push this out and they followed it because it's hard to test when just a handful of players check it out. The real testing falls in the first several weeks of a publish and that period has occurred.
     
  10. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Poobah
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    I have heard quite a few.. myself included.. who said the pet revamp drug them back to the game. And I have also heard quite a few (again myself included) who have said that with the pet revamp they are strongly considering actually going Fel side more often to run spawns because they are no longer at a SEVERE disadvantage there. I do agree with you there need to be some tweeking... but broad changes are not what is needed.
     
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  11. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Honestly, just because something overpowered exists that would potentially get you to come to fel, isn't incentive enough for the players who do pvp to have the handicap as well. I'm all for new players to pvp, but using something that in its current state is overpowered shouldn't be your draw there.
     
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  12. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Poobah
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    Ya know... I had just been taking this topic on face value.. but I was bored and decided to hit a couple forums where PvP folks congregate and freely talk without having to worry about much of a filter.. and I could not find the "outrage".. I could not find PvP'ers ranting about "Pvp dying because of the revamp"... in fact the only mention I found about it was where someone said something to the effect of:

    Taming changes have made some people who were "complete non factors" be "somewhat dangerous" .. he did go on to say the pets today are "no joke"

    I would think if things were THAT out of balance there would be plenty of threads on the topic on those boards.
     
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  13. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    Like I mentioned earlier I have recently been around pvpers and I have been invited to there discord channel

    So far none of them have have complained about pets actually some of them are creating tamers not sure if it's to adjust to the new system for pvp or pvm either way they are some of the best pvpers on the shard I play

    I'll start asking them what needs to be changed with the new taming revam just to have a bigger pool of pvpers

    I would like to add they are hands down the best people I have met in game in years the community feeling is bar none the best I've had in game in a very long long time far from greedy very giving all ways willing to help and support me
     
    #63 skett, Jun 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
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  14. TheDrAJ

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    I do like the idea of making all the spawns for scrolls occur on both facets. But I am sure, pretty soon no one would be in Fel at all and if double resources were eliminated I wouldn't even mind if FEL became a pet free facet. Make sure that both facets are identical.
     
  15. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    Honestly I used to feel it was unfair that tramies had to relay on fel players to get PS and I'm starting to understand the risk vs reward

    I have to admit though I'm fortunate to be part of a group that willing gives me PS and all the other drops free

    So I'm still on fence on this one
     
  16. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    The place you are referring to has about 6 people that talk back and fourth at each other, and about 5 ppl that post that dont even play anymore. Its not a good source for information. Most players that pvp do not post anymore, for one reason or another.
     
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  17. NinjaSampire

    NinjaSampire Seasoned Veteran

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    So pet nerf in fel and add power scrolls to ilsh/tram spawns?
     
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  18. Nexus

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    The only way I think there is to really fix it from a PvP standpoint can be summed up by the word "revert". No matter what caps or reductions they put into place to attempt to balance pets in PvP it won't work. Since AoS we've seen an ever evolving range of templates for PvP and to be honest PvM where people use suits etc. to min-max their templates. The more top tier loot they add to the game the worse it gets. Now with the Pet Revamp you'll see something similar, no matter what they put in, players will find adapt and evolve to compensate, we're likely to be facing years (if the game lasts years more) of balance nightmares, stealth nerfs, and the like till eventually tamers will wind up severely under-powered in both PvP and PvM.

    When the Pet Revamp was announced I was against it and said so more than once largely out of fear it would spark off another long and complicated process of balancing and the investment of dev resources into change for the sake of change. It's another example of the devs ignoring the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) or if you'd rather the wisdom behind cliche phrases like "If it isn't broke, don't fix it."
     
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  19. Parnoc

    Parnoc Lore Master
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    Please whatever you do, developers, for the PVP'ers on here, PLEASE leave the pets alone for PVM. I haven't heard any PVM tamers complaining.
    My archer can still stay even with or outdamage any pet in game in PVM. PVM is NOT hurt, please don't mess with it.
     
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  20. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    I agree

    It's very obvious I don't have the knowledge that you have and many many others here
    I would like to see uo last onther 5 years

    I don't want more players quitting because of the direction the dev team is taking us
    I was just hoping we could all work together and find a balance

    The problem I feel is lack of communication from the devs at this point I realize they are working hard and under staffed but either way they need to take the time and listen or ya we are probably doomed never going to see a 25th anniversary

    We have told them for years no more spread sheets no more grinds blah blah but they don't listen

    Kiss
     
  21. Keith of Sonoma

    Keith of Sonoma Babbling Loonie
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    If they nerf the pets, I think you will see more tamers leave the game than PvP'r that even exist in UO. From what I have seen, it has brought A LOT of tamers back to the game. And they are not happy that the pets they spent time with training, put bonding potions on, spent 100's of millions, or plats on scrolls, could be ruined in one fell swoop. Just my opinion of course. But think about it. I don't care what shard you play on, how many new tamers/returning tamers have you seen running around since the publish. A LOT! How many new PvP'rs do you see when....... Well, you get the point.
     
  22. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    Your right it has increased I have see more players

    I'm not saying nerf tamers go back and read all my post

    I would like to see how well they balance it for pvp is all

    We can't afford more players quitting even if it is just the 2% they are part of are community

    I feel at this point we the players need to stand in alliance
     
  23. de LEET ed

    de LEET ed Lore Master

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    Cant you simply add the "heat of battle" debuff to pets, except it does say caps resist at 70's , 25% hp reduction, 50% damage reduction, something simple. Oh your pets attacking a player, its nerfed for 2 minutes while attacking a player, oh that player died or left or unflagged blah blah your pet is amazing again kill anything you want thats not capped at 150 hit points!
     
  24. TheDrAJ

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    One of the problems is that the vast majority of players do not read or frequent these forums so their input is never heard.
     
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  25. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Stratics Forum Moderator
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    This thread has been cleaned up a bit and some posts have been removed. Everyone, please refrain from including personal attacks and insults in any posts going forward.

    Thank you.
     
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  26. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Ok I have a question... I'm minding my own business doing a spawn and some Fellie comes and attacks me.... why should my pet be nerfed when coming to my rescue because someone opted to attack me?

    IMO if the pet is guarding me and he attacks me... then he gets what he deserves... If I'm out in Fel looking for a fight and attacking him and telling my pet to kill him outside the champ where I'm not just defending myself... then well... nerf away I guess...

    Or just do what I said and just move PSs to both facets and let the tamers be tamers and fight PvM and have fun and change all rules in Fel for balanced PvP...
     
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  27. de LEET ed

    de LEET ed Lore Master

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    You cant be in fel and not expect to get pvp unless u on a dead shard farming scrolls

    ** Power scrolls are the ONE thing felluca has. If they were farmed in trammel they would be worth peanuts
     
    #77 de LEET ed, Jun 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
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  28. de LEET ed

    de LEET ed Lore Master

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    [​IMG]

    Risk Vs Reward
     
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  29. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I realize that but ...... I'm just saying if I'm not there to be a PK jerko and I'm just having fun farming scrolls whatever and someone rolls in looking to kill me why should my pet be nerfed when I'm not actively trying to kill them?? IMO they chose to attack me then that's on them...
     
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  30. de LEET ed

    de LEET ed Lore Master

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    Much like the plethora of 4/6 chrs who wouldnt flag and could instant sacred journey away it would probably be the same mindset, pet attacks its flagged, pet gets attacked its not flagged who knows just an idea
     
  31. Luc of Legends

    Luc of Legends Seasoned Veteran
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    I agree but I am going to play devils' advocate here: If you put power scrolls in Tram and Ish then you have put the final nail in the coffin for fel because there will
    be no reason to go to fel. We'll be exactly right where we are now that is death of PvP. I want to go on record that I am NOT a PvPer. It is not my play style but I recognize that is a integral part of the Ultima Online experience. We all PAY TO PLAY UO so no play style should dominate at expense of other play styles.
     
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  32. TheDrAJ

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    I think the point is the majority of players do not want to pvp. So let's help them out by by providing a level playing surface where the facets are identical.

    I really worry when FTP comes in the Fall, that will make these matters even worse.
     
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  33. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Isn't much risk if you come with 10 guys to kill one..... that's not a risk... that stuff is the dumbest garbage ever put out... IMO there is no risk for a seasoned PvPer attacking a single lone person at a spawn .... zero... all the risk is on that one person doing something... yet the other guy gets all the reward for being a total A$& Hat...

    Really hate that concept and it should have been killed ages ago... Let PvP be PvP and keep PvM out of it all together and quit trying to bring sheeple in for the slaughter... make PvP fun and people will do it... and want to do it.... Make PvP a joke nightmare and all you will get is resentment and hate... Just saying.

    If it were more level and had some incentive... IMO there is ZERO incentive to kill a Red... What would be the point??? He just rezes and is right back at it... I get nothing out of it... There is no leader board no fun nothing...

    Now the problem with having leaderboards and reward for killing a PK... is that it's HIGHLY exploitable... and you can get yourself on there just killing your own characters over and over same with all the other problems that come with a lot of that stuff...

    PvM isn't as exploitable... you actually DO have to kill stuff that is actually trying to kill you and you can't get a drop just by whacking some no skilled toon on another account.... over and over... etc... and you can't get a reward by having your friend come kill you and splitting the booty...

    I'm not going to say it's without it's exploits .... but face it .... what has happened in Fel and all with the lack of things and what-not is the nature of it all... scammers, cheaters and people driving folk away from the game and away from fel with the bad attitudes and behaviors rampant cheating all is a comeupance ... IMO. The more it goes on and the more it's been that way and continues... you get what you have.... or you reap what you sow. As well flavor of the Month has been a part of UO since the beginning... someone figures out how to win 95% of the time and everyone follows suit... People like new toys.

    The only risk is on anyone foolish enough to go to Fel... and if that's what you want enjoy the ghost town and don't complain. Brought it on yourselves.

    Can banter over it all you like but it boils down to it would be more beneficial to keep PvP and PvM TOTALLY separate... rather than try to lure lambs to a slaughter why not come up with idea's that aren't exploitable to make PvP more fun and enjoyable rather than trying more lures... catch more flies with honey... If it were fun and enjoyable more folk would do it... and if they didn't think they would die in .2 seconds people might give it a shot .... but most peoples experience with Fel is bad attitudes, being cheated, tricked, ganked, or some other negativity... and then having those same people taunt and belittle the victim... and then wonder why no one wants to be there? Newsflash... it's because of the attitudes ....
     
  34. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Come up with some non-exploitable fun reason to PvP and make it exciting, level, and fun... There were 100's of reasons to PvP with RP... many of them I very well enjoyed... but being ganked at a spawn 3 vs 1 when already 2/3 dead is Neither a challenge nor "fun"..... and I can't think that's fun for the PK either.... getting what 1 hit in and the "fight" lasting .2 seconds doesn't sound "fun" to me... doesn't sound challenging either....


    I recall having big RP battles with upwards of 15 people to 25 people per side... the battles were fun and challenging... and exciting.... very enjoyable on either side... winning or losing... you got back up and did it again another day.

    But luring folk into Fel just so they can PvM while you PK them isn't fun.... and face it NOT challenging..... Now if you were defending something.... maybe a harrower is fun defending and all that.... but really... there has got to be some way to make it more balanced... more fun.... and less of a bad experience...

    Forcing folk to do something they don't enjoy is NOT fun. Holding the scrolls for ransom at inflated insane prices also NOT fun.. serves to anger folk and make them resentful and hateful... won't endear them to the Fel experience either..... and won't make them want to rally to your cause either.
     
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  35. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    please stop derailing this thread @MalagAste

    The argument is tired and old, you can make it both sides. Forcing a pvper to have to do the roof to get a pair of 10 hci boots is the same argument as forcing a pvmer to come to fel. If you dont want to do it, then buy them. Fel has one item that is valuable that is part of the facet. All the other facets have multiple.

    Back on topic.
     
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  36. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    I wounder what the revenue loss would be if fel was eliminated

    This isn't directed at anyone just a though

    A lot of people that love and remember it's early days of no tram might still be here

    I for one reminisce about the early days of old

    Are numbers slowly keep falling off something is not right .......

    I don't have the answer but some sort of balance had to happen a free for killing others wasn't working

    I hope someday a new company (dev team) can find a way to create a sand box game that has true pvp no safe zones but has serious consequences for killer others just because they can.
     
  37. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Honestly, sometimes i'd love to sit back and see them just delete the fel facet, just to see it happen. Because i guarantee based on how this economy works, you'd see the game sink hard and fast. PvPers spend a TON of gold on the items that PvMers farm and sell. Then all the ignorant people trying to force the pvpers out can find a new game too.
     
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  38. de LEET ed

    de LEET ed Lore Master

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    Im sorry but no.

    This is what PVM is now.

    [​IMG]
     
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  39. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    bahahahaha

    nail on the head there. Wasn't gunna turn anything into what pvm is now with taming, but there it is and its a joke. amazes me how anybody's entire gameplay concept is this stuff, but to each their own.
     
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  40. de LEET ed

    de LEET ed Lore Master

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    Im not trolling in any way. I never pvm in my life and figured hey you know what ima make a super cu give me something fun to mess around with. Lets go fight a trex! 55k hp bad a** mob right?
    Pop consume w 120 med and take hands of keyboard it dies. Is it considered afk if i dont have to actually do anything?
     
  41. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Fantastic example of why this **** should be nerfed in pvm too... But I wasn't gunna go there ... Still not gunna... Too many trolls
     
  42. Larry Lee

    Larry Lee Adventurer
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    I thought she made a very good point. Make the two facets identical and nerf pets on Fel. How can the pvp people disagree with that.
     
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  43. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I think viewing this as a "which group should we lose?" is an incredibly bad idea. This game cannot take losing whole groups of people, especially when there could be changes made that satisfy the needs of both groups.

    Just nerf pets in pvp, and leave them alone for pvm. Even if you drop the damage to 50%, and disallow dismount in pvp, the new pets are still superior in pvp to the pets we had before for the few people who are interested in pvping with taming when it's not OP.
     
  44. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I think consume damage should just be replaced with something else. The whole point of it before was to increase survivability, and the new publish has given people tools to simply make pets more hardy.
     
  45. railshot

    railshot Sage
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    Well if the PvPers PvP because they love it, and not because they want to grief trammies or benefit from monopoly prices on PSs, it should not be a problem, should it?
     
  46. Polaris75

    Polaris75 Lore Keeper
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    Powerscrolls for tram would just lead to afk sampires / AI'ing archers constantly farming..... which nobody wants that. Bad idea.... as much of a Trammie as I am. It would be just like the Turtle spawn where RIIIIIGHT when the Turtle is about to pop 2-5 "other characters" conveniently show up to start Armor Ignoring the Turtle on archers......

    Just add 50% dmg reduction from pets against players.... 50% dmg increase from players to pets.... and maybe make dismount on a pet have a 100% mana drain effect temporarily that goes back full after a timer, or disable casting/specials on pets for about 5-10 seconds after either player or pet uses dismount. Aka... nerf.

    There's no need to change the powerscrolls in fel as that would ruin fel honestly. I don't want to see the 3-4 players who "camp with invisible characters" the Turtle spawn to have a 0.1% chance at getting a taming lvl 3 mastery do the same thing in Trammel...... those guys make me want to quit every single time I get drug to the Turtle spawn to help family............... so sad my wife/daughter run the Turtle spawn by their selves and 3-4 bots show up to take their reward..... that's the crap in this game that needs to stop. In fel it's understandable... still irks me and that's why I don't play my tamer any more. I have 10 pets.... but 0 powerscrolls.... so I just went back to decorating. But it is what it is... that would kill felucca for sure. But I don't want to see bots/afk players/ scripters just waiting for a boss to appear in Trammel every time more than that.
     
  47. TheDrAJ

    TheDrAJ Certifiable
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    How about we have power scrolls in tram and they fix it so afk players/scripters/bots etc are booted from the spawn. Ghost cams etc have been around in Fel since the beginning.
     
  48. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Not derailing anything.... Just saying.... Look at it for what it is you want..... you wanted people in Fel they are there..... don't want Tamers in Fel... Give them a reason not to be there.... but don't nerf the thing that has brought TONS of people back to actually PLAYING UO...

    Nerf it to the point that a Tamer hasn't got a hope in hell of being in Fel and you'll go back to the wasteland that is Fel.... have fun playing alone.
     
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  49. Great DC

    Great DC Sage
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    There is no fix for this problem without issues on both sides, again we tried to explain this to bleak and kyronix personally on TC. It was ignored and now everything is screwed. I don't understand how even pvm tamers are happy with this patch. There is essentially only one pet in the game, everything can be made to do the same thing as any other pet. Why even have different artwork for pets anymore, it should just be a shadowed outline. I also find it funny that people are paying 10-15m for wrestling scrolls for a pet and wouldn't pay more then 250k for one on their actual character. The only drawback on pets now is having too many slots pre-tame, which means less training and adding to it. I believe they should have done this on a percentage basis, where you tame something with 105 wrestling and can only add up to 10-15 percent more to that with training. They could have broken it down for each pet individually and everything would have been a little stronger and still a reason to tame different pets and to try to get high starting stats. Now everyone just tames once and then trains, no reason to hunt down a better version of it. PS shouldn't have been added to it at all, a terrible idea, and yes I know it adds more people to fel to get those scrolls which is good for pvp, but those people aren't worth fighting in my opinion if they are not pvpers. Good luck trying to fix it though, itll fall on deaf ears like every other issue in UO since mesanna came around.
     
    CovenantX likes this.
  50. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    Awww come on AJ it isn't about the scrolls its all about the PvP not controlling the real most over powered feature of the game ;)
     
    TheDrAJ likes this.
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