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PvP dying a painful death from Tamers Online

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Cetric, Jun 18, 2017 at 12:46 AM.

  1. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    This is starting to get ridiculous. There are literally guilds switching out their chars to be nothing but tamers. meaning if they have 8 online, and 6 are on tamers theres 8 players doing offense and 6 pets roaming while dismounts are being thrown and the like.

    The vetting period is over. Fix this before its over, as we've tried to warn over and over and over.

    If something isn't done to curb this behavior of using tamers in their overpowered state i'm just gunna follow everyone else and move on to somewhere else. Pets really dont belong in pvp in the first place, but im ok with them being there they are just rediculous overpowered. Pets are damn enar invinvible, and a fight against a tamer is basically as good as fighting 2 players with how good the pets are.

    Its exceedingly obvious theres a problem when not only is there a ton of people running the templates, its damn near the majority.

    If you wanted the game to be nothing but tamers, you are about 2 weeks away from accomplishing the goal. Welcome to UO Pokemon Online.

    @Bleak @Kyronix
    @Mesanna
     
  2. King Greg

    King Greg Sage

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    It's honestly too late now, kind of like new loot, it should of had more time in testing.

    Welcome to Tamers Online.
     
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  3. TheDrAJ

    TheDrAJ Certifiable
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  4. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    I really suck at pvp

    I remember when a true worrior was a good template years later I'm still trying to adjust stubbornly that's why I hardly play
    so I do understand your point but change is what uo is all about like it or not which I don't but I'm just one person after all
    Keep up with the times or left behind......
     
  5. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Yep, pretty much play a tamer or go elsewhere

    I quit for a good long time, and after the publish before the taming publish I came back because templates and PvP became extremely balanced. I was very pro taming patch too, still am even. They revitalized power scrolls, made things interesting with pvm tamers, you name it. But something is very wrong with the pets in PvP. There's no one certain ability that's overpowered, it's an overall thing.

    The pets hit for just as much damage as before after you 120 them out and max their damage, and then figure in the 30% dmg reduction, but when you figure in that they have 120 wrestle so they hit so much more often, 120 resist so they can't be paralyzed, so much resist that they barely take damage, and even when they do they could have 1000 hit points, abilities to dismount, disarm and mortal, sleep , cast 45 damage spells, you name it it's all over the board.

    They need hit in PvP and hit hard but I don't know ow how you reverse it enough at this point. It sounds like a rant but it really has begun to ruin PvP, despite the fact that spawn fights were rejuvenated by power scrolls.

    I know of no less then 10 ppl that have moved on to freeshard, and many others considering it, for this reason alone. They enjoyed playing here, but this is becoming too much
     
    #5 Cetric, Jun 18, 2017 at 2:14 AM
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017 at 2:21 AM
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  6. skittles1337

    skittles1337 Journeyman
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    Lets face it, Mesanna and her team don't really care about the pvp community. Pvp really only exists on ATL, all other shards are completely dead. This was the final nail in the coffin for many pvpers, I've known 25-30 people refuse to play uo anymore over this patch. I agree with Greg it is too late to fix it, damage has already been done. Welcome to tamers online!
     
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  7. Fridgster

    Fridgster Slightly Crazed
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    Admittedly, I've been incredibly vocal against changes to the taming revamp. Even more so with my disdain towards pvp.
    With that said perhaps a compromise should be considered. Don't get me wrong, I don't want any change that directly effects pvm. Tamers have needed an upgrade in that aspect for a very long time. However I do believe that a compromise is possible. Dismount seems to be a problem. Removing it from pets would have zero effect on pvm. I also wouldn't mind a drastic reduction to damage output towards players only.
    I guess what I'm saying is that if changes can be made that can help balance pvp without nerfing pets for pvmers then I personally would have no issues with adjustments. However, anything that nerfs pets in a whole effecting both play styles would make for a lot of ticked off players. I can assure you more pvmers will leave than pvpers that are threatening to leave now.
     
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  8. transcendent

    transcendent Journeyman

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    Pets pvp damage reduction should be increased to 50% for a start.
     
  9. Fridgster

    Fridgster Slightly Crazed
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    No issue with that here. Again only my opinion and I'm sure some that use pets in pvp may disagree but that's between you guys lol.
     
  10. SoulWeaver

    SoulWeaver King of The Bearded Ladies
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    PokeUoMon gotta tame them, train them and all kill with them!
     
  11. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    How about, they decrease the barding difficulty on 5 slot pets, then peacemaking would be a legit pvp skill.
     
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  12. Aeyko

    Aeyko Sage

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    @Mesanna @Bleak @Captn Norrington It has become painfully obvious that the pvp aspect of this game has been left behind. I spent a number of hours with @Bleak attempting to balance templates for the publish prior to this ridiculous taming publish. I logged in last night only to fight a group of tamers with dismounting and teleporting nightmares, phoenix's and snakes. When you have pets that are more dangerous than the player themselves, that is an issue. I really wish @Mesanna and @Bleak could open their eyes and see the damage that is being done to pvp and eliminate this from a player vs player aspect. You will continue to lose pvpers, some like myself who have 9 active accounts that are ranging from 19 years to 12 years old. I am a veteran of this game and I never imagined it would turn into what I am seeing in todays Ultima online PVP. @Captn Norrington don't ban me for this post and monitor the insults and the trolling that follows... Enabling these people while silencing me is not helping the game you guys seem to care about.

    Had to edit this due to harassment again. Enjoy tamers online boys, you guys helped create this mess.
     
    #12 Aeyko, Jun 18, 2017 at 9:09 AM
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017 at 9:59 AM
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  13. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Thanks for coming around haha, means a lot! Hope others can come in with the same attitude. I agree I have absolutely no desire to see anything change with the pets in pvm. On that side of things the new pet changes are legitimately fun and welcome change.

    I agree with one thing that was said, dmg should be further reduced from the 30%. This was set at 50% on test center and was changed to 30% for no legitate
    reason.

    1. Reduce damage output vs players
    2. Reduce pets hit chance by a lot vs players. Co Sider reducing defence as well to curb 120 parry pets. The 120 wrestling was my biggest fear and it did make a giant difference.
    3. Allow pets to be paralyzed by players, regardless if their resist is 120.
    4. Find a way for the pets to take more damage from players, in any way. Whether it be slayers or 50% more damage from players or something. We had an archer on last night that was hitting a 900hp mare for 6 damage hits... Yea.. 6.
    5. Consider changes to their abilities but if hit chance reduced, not necessary.


    That would be a good start
     
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  14. Rusker Sulle

    Rusker Sulle Visitor

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    I do have a question about the new pet revamp and their skill caps. I saw on the tamer forum,the bio's of some of the pets and it made me wonder if the new pets have a skill cap of as high 10x legendary(1200 points). Is that right? High hit points and almost double the skill points I can have on my character?
     
  15. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Correct pets do not have a skill cap, you can 120 any skill they have/gain in. So a mare with 1200 usable skill is not out of the question without sacrificing anything
     
  16. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Poobah
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    When I first started reading this post the only thing I was thinking was "Hell, I can out run any of my pets on foot and they can not catch me... and I lag like heck. So the "speeding" pvp rascals should have no issue with the pets".

    As I kept reading I began to see some of the points being made. Points I can get onboard with even though I am and always have been one who only takes pets to Fel....

    1 - Create a "Pet Slayer" property that adds additional damage to any tamed pet (the only exception I personally would have on this is for them to find a way to limit the property on a Sampire and other high end temps because some of them still hit for a TON.. I would imagine in PvP they can still hit the pets for 150+ easily as they do in Pvm - if I am wrong see the note in #2)

    Personally for now I would only make the property available on Spell Books. Sure, some pets already have a vulnerability to slayers but others do not. Creating new slayer types for the pets who have no vulnerability would just be stupid imo. There are already TOOOO dang many slayers to carry as it is.. and why bog down the PVP'er with 4+ more slayer types and make them have to carry them all at once. In PVM it does not matter how many we have to carry because we know what we are hunting before we head out and can snag what we need. A mage PVP'er hits a spawn to raid and is instantly hit by 2-6 different pets.... no way to set macros to swap to the specific slayer type they need for the pet that is closest.

    2 - Remove the 25% SDI cap against pets (that is provided that actually exists - shows what I know about PvP - yepp, it ain't much. My involvement in it is usually reduced to dying once they raid my spawn :p )

    3 - Increase the damage reduction against players on pets that are higher than 105 (Last I heard it was 30.. I would jump to 40)

    Sure, maybe a pita as far as coding goes.. but after putting my 120 Cu on myself (and not running) it hits for 34 range but does hit constantly. However a GM Cu does not hit anywhere near as often. And I personally do not think 34 damage is OP unless you are getting hit constantly.
     
  17. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Just wanted to note, on your cu attacking you - curse yourself and give it mysticism and do the same test and marvel at the damage output. the cu will bite you for 40+ and cast spells on top of it. Now imagine that happening while also getting hit by the controller of the pet for damage. And further... picture more than 1 at a time.
     
  18. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Poobah
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    Got ya.. heck even without the additional magic skills that would be a recipe for a monochrome screen...

    but.. I do not think they should base any pet changes on a Zerg type situation. I mean they haven't made those type changes in the past based on a Zerg by dexxers/mages on the lone pet owner trying to sneak off a spawn and getting monochromed in two seconds lol

    With the balance that currently exists I stand a decent chance at successfully pushing back two raiders on a spawn with my VERY limited PvP skills.. to me that does speak to things being unbalanced. Of course these days.. how many spawns are being raided on Atlantic by just 2 folks lol.
     
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  19. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    The pets are more powerful then some of the reallly overpowered templates that have existed in the past, namely because they hit, hit hard, and hit often. I'd almost take a good tamer over a wod archer or a spell plague dexer when they existed. But what happened to them? They got nerfed HARD
     
  20. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Poobah
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    I get that the pets are more than a handfull for some temps out there now.. but I am willing to bet there are still some temps that can handle them very easily (sampire comes to mind quickly). Sure, I would not mind seeing some balance for those temps who are getting owned by the pets.. but I would not like to see across the board nerfs that make it even easier for the op temps.

    I mean heck, I watch as Sampires take out Para-Cu's without hardly any effort at all.. busting those 5,000+ hp Cu's that easily makes the 1,000 hp ones just a slight bump in the road..
     
  21. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    4 or 5 plat for a top suit isn't a large investment?

    Once again I'm not a pvper but all my in game friends are.

    Just saying
     
  22. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    I'm not going to weigh in much on the PVP aspect here...

    ... but Tamers are over powered now. And worse yet, a lot of the Tamers on these forums continue to cry they're under powered because they can't do a champ spawn as fast a sampire. It's absurdity at the highest level.

    I want both sides to be balanced out and don't necessarily fall into either category... but pets with almost double the amount of skill points of actual players (not to mention special moves/abilities/AOEs) is a problem.
     
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  23. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    I'm sorry in one sentence you claim sampire can solo a champ fast and it's absurd that onther template wants to be able to do the same

    Then the onther sentence you claim you want balance seem like the sampire is still better at champ spawns

    I'm lost on this one

    Maybe I'm not understanding your point can please clarify it
     
  24. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    Different templates are going to excel or struggle at different areas of the game. Every template shouldn't be able to do every PVM encounter at the same speed and same ease.
     
  25. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    So this isn't a balance issue it's a template issue?

    Honestly I'm trying to challenge you just trying to understand why you feel tamers need to be nerfed at champ spawns

    As far as pvp I believe some sort fix is needed to balance the templates but I also feel they should be a viable template
     
  26. Great DC

    Great DC Seasoned Veteran
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    The pet revamp wasn't a revamp, they just took all the locks off everything on pets and threw away the key. They grabbed every known tamable and some new ones and said, its wide open now add anything you want we don't care. It was a complete lazy patch on part of the devs. There was a reason to have different pets before for different bosses and encounters. Now its just tame a beetle and make it better then a greater drag with bonus of rune corruption. Taming in pvp is ridiculous, but real pvp died a few years ago anyway. A lot of people left pvp during the super parry mage/archers online time. Its just getting worse not better, and the combat patch before the taming patch was a mess too, it had maybe one good thing and rest was garbage. What people are missing is the high power creep due to global loot change, this made offensive parry mages and machine gun archers. I hav fought nothing but the same 20-30 people in pvp on UO since 2013, its been dead. No new blood comes out to fight due to mass cheating and no consequences from the devs.
     
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  27. -Hey Arnold-

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    The Real problem with the pets for me is you have no clue wtf a pet is going to do to you leaving very little room to outplay. Before the update u could judge if you could take a melee hit from there pet and still live depending on what pet it was. Now i have no clue when im in danger. You just have to pretty much run away and assume every pet has dismount dp disarm mysticism magery ext.

    The real problem with PvP is VvV but thats a whole different topic :D.
     
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  28. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    none exists,

    I haven't yet come across any pvp tamers on Europa, but let us not kid ourselves into thinking anyone will ever be able to kill an 80 resists pet whilst the owner is alive healing it.. perhaps the "all kill" command should take 50 mana or something, or everytime a tamer says all kill, they have a temporary reduction in resists (or is under the guarded effect).
     
  29. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    Why can't everyone here work together and try to figure how to balance the taming pvp aspect

    I honestly hope the devs don't nerf taming for pvm

    Why can't they change the damage out put to 40% reduction and no specials to start
     
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  30. Crak Lord

    Crak Lord Seasoned Veteran
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    All im going to say is Agreed..Fix it....
     
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  31. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    No offense but you'll see both tramies and pvpers here are trash talking a little
    Which is very immature imho
    After rereading all the post again it seem most of the pvp crowd here have been less offensive

    Like I said before I am not a pvper but I have been trying to learn for the last few months
    On the shard I play I find them to be the complete opposite of what I read here at stratics
    They have helped me more than any other group of players in years
    Any ps scrolls I want they give them to me for free
    I now have a decent pvp suit that cost around 2 plat that they all helped me build for free as well
    I have for the first time been doing spawns it's a lot fun even when we get raided and loose everything it's a blast

    I would be willing to bet those pvpers here if asked would be willing to help the tram or siege players here

    It would be great if we could just work together to help balance this last pub
     
  32. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    As long as the discussion remains within the bounds of the RoC (found here: Rules of Conduct | Stratics Community Forums ) and the discussion can stay focused on proposed changes, in-game examples, and other aspects relevant to this topic... let's not pre-emptively assume a lock is going to come into place here. I jumped in a little bit earlier at the first sign of a personal swipe to try to nip this in the bud because this is an important discussion that needs to happen and I see no reason why it can't move forward in a constructive manner.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and simply because someone disagrees with you... it doesn't mean it's a personal attack. I would like to think (and hope) most members of our Stratics community care about this game enough that they're willing to put their egos aside to have a discussion on how to make changes here without it turning into ATL Gen-chat.

    No matter where you stand on the topic being discussed... it's fair to say that the Taming patch has had reverberations through out other areas of the game which are still being discovered and still in need of some balance and tweaks. This includes both aspects of PVP and PVM. Proposing changes is not meant to be an attack on the developers, anyone's play style or preferences... it's just the facts of the matter when you have such a large and game-changing publish such as the most recent 'Pet Revamp' that some areas are going to 'break' or require additional changes in order to keep the game balanced.
     
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  33. TheDrAJ

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    Well I agree with parts of what you say, but I love how these discussions start right away without some players even giving the changes a chance.
     
  34. Aeyko

    Aeyko Sage

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    I've given this change a massive chance. I even have a pvm tamer that EASILY solo's Peutrifiers and Abscess with ONE pet.... Let's be real here, that shouldn't be taking place. Those are the two hardest monsters in the game. Then you put those same pets in PLAYER VS PLAYER aspect, and watch the game be completely ruined. The pets are harder than 90% of the players that use them, that's a problem. The initial problem I had with you personally was you speaking down to pvpers as if your opinion matters more in a subject that you do not even take part in. I actually take part in your PVM aspects, and I do quite well. As I mentioned, with these new OP pets, i can solo any of the hardest monsters at any time. It's quite easy now. PVP on the other hand, is not as easy as some of the PVM. So yes, when something I put a good amount of time in (Active pvper for 15 years or more)is being "laughed at" I may come across a tad aggressive.

    In conclusion, we, the pvpers, have given this a chance. We've seen the demise of PVP and whats turned into tamers overthrowing balance with overpowered pets. The very balance @Bleak spent a great deal of time putting in combat changes in the previous publish. It's time to make it right and balance this out.
     
  35. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Poobah
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    Errr.. not to get off track..

    but...

    have you tried those two on a Sampire? It takes nowhere near as long to down one on a Sampire as it does on the newer pets... and before ya scoff at it... I am still new as heck to the Sampire end of the pool and even my nooblet self can down Abscess with ease on it.

    I do agree it should not be happening on either temp, but before huge nerfs are thrown out on on temp... how it performs against another temp should most definitely be taken into account. And I would put money on Sampires being able to easily handle any of the new pets that have a slayer vulnerability.
     
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  36. Aeyko

    Aeyko Sage

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    How pets perform in PVM doesn't concern me. How they perform against another PLAYER is the issue here. I think we can all agree on that.Pets using special moves and teleporting from off screen to another player SHOULD NOT be taking place in PVP.
     
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  37. Fridgster

    Fridgster Slightly Crazed
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    it doesn't concern you but you have no issue attempting to use it as an excuse as to why its over powered. BTW with the exception of shadowgaurd my sampire is more effective than any of the new pets. By far.
     
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  38. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    It was an example of what the pets can be. No one cares what your sampire can do, the fact is now a pet non player can perform a similar action requiring little interaction from it's owner. Apply that functionality to PvP and a single tamer with a new pet is nearly as functional as two players.

    Hello wanna talk sampires? Go back to aos time period and see why life leech no longer functions in PvP. It was nerfed. Apply that logic to pets.

    Need look no further than the mighty sampire to see how a concept can be amazing in pvm and nerfed out of existence in pvp
     
    #38 Cetric, Jun 18, 2017 at 5:35 PM
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017 at 5:45 PM
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  39. Polaris75

    Polaris75 Sage
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    I don't think a pet vs player damage reduction should be out of the question. I could also see them making a new "Pet Slayer" property.... since most pvp encounters don't last long anyway... and of course the owner could run/hide/log/rez their pet. The thing the devs have to be careful of however.... is then that 4 reds could easily come in with "pet slayer" weapons and clear the pet's and players trying to work champion spawns.... b/c the players will be underpowered / overwhelmed when they get off to a 1v1 without their pets. 720 skill points vs 390 more or less..... It needs to be looked at though I tend to agree.

    Maybe a 60% reduction in pet dmg outside of champion spawn areas.... but that doesn't apply in the "no recall" locations? I dunno... just throwing out ideas to help you guys/the Devs argue for something. Good luck with it though.... my pets are safely in the stables awaiting the 200m necessary powerscrolls.... :p :p My phoenix will never again be removed from the stables until they change that back. As an aside (and not to derail the thread,) did the phoenix change to rainbow turkey help you pvp'ers??
     
  40. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    A character geared to pvm can do well on one with a Slayer vulnerability yes, however armor ignore is capped on pets unlike in pvm, and the pets have 120 parry. So even the most powerful damaging template takes too long to take a pet down while they are also dealing with the owner attacking them or healing the pet. In that regard it is not viable, let alone the sampire is not viable in PvP
     
  41. Polaris75

    Polaris75 Sage
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    Or simply have no slayer involved as that "complicates everything..." They could add like a 50/50 rule and go from there to find the right balance. 50% less damage from pets vs players... and 50% more damage to pets from players.
     
  42. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    We need less bickering and need to focus on finding solutions to the problem.


    I agree with raising the damage reduction against players to 50%. It does not affect pvm, so it should keep everyone happy. It would also be a good idea to increase the damage that pets receive against players by 50% too. Right now it is nearly impossible to take out the pet.
     
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  43. Luc of Legends

    Luc of Legends Seasoned Veteran
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    There needs to be a checks and balance in their coding. The biggest problem I see is that the dev team is composed of people that wouldn't know pascal from HTML. I think there is one actual degree-ed programmer. I am not slamming self taught programmers but in a world building scenario you need some with the formal training and experience to see what the effects on B, C and D if you change A. That being said I think that to achieve some semblance of balance both taming and sampire must be nerfed. Also we have no idea what the back end of UO looks like ..20 years of spaghetti code. Another big problem is the dev team tests in a bubble. Their controlled environment is the "perfect" shard no outside variables you cannot test for every single variable it is a complete impossibility. It is hard to account for ever single possible way a "user" might use or abuse (lol) the software. We actually had a discussion on this in HCI - Human Computer Interface class. I would love to intern at Broadsword to see the inner working of my favorite game, but game design is not my strong suit.
     
    #43 Luc of Legends, Jun 18, 2017 at 6:13 PM
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017 at 6:18 PM
  44. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    In addition, kill pets hit chance and it would be a start to see where it ends up. Even if the pets but for 10 damage the disruption and ability to perform special moves like dismount and mortal is enough to cause havok.
     
  45. King Greg

    King Greg Sage

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    The issue here is balance. 230 Points to control just about any of these pets and what abilities+Damage do they bring to the table for that investment. These issues in pvp can be broken down into Damage, Specials, and resists.

    Damage: They already have code in place to reduce a pets damage by a certain % in pvp . My vote is that they scale it based on the total real skill investment. Taming + lore + Vet > 300 30% damage Reduction. Taming + Lore + Vet > 200 50% Damage Reduction. This will limit the Versatility in taming templates that drop Vet and that utilize skill jewels with taming/lore to carry them. Issues that go with this though include pets that don't require taming or lore.

    Specials: The most obvious is Dismount. Yes, we could dismount before with a Hyru or a lesser hyru, but these pets had almost no cold resist and a super slayer so players could counter them with weapons. These things could die in under 5-10s with the right weapon/slayer books, etc. If a pet dismounts it should force dismount the tamer and put the timer on him as well. The others, bleed, mortal, dp, etc, refer to damage. These are annoying, but no where near as game changing as pets ability to dismount players while leaving the tamer itself on mount/able to mount.

    Remove the Player Armor ignore Cap on Pets. I don't know what possessed them to do that in the first place, but it needs to go. Yes a player should be able to bring down a pet in 5 consecutive armor ignores just like they can theoretically bring down another player in 5 consecutive armor ignores.

    Those changes are a step in the right direction and have no effect on PvM.
     
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  46. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    They did fix the dismount timer with the last hotfixes, but the issue is still there. Now anything can perform it, and with 120 wrestle and casting while it's at it
     
  47. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    I can't think of a single situation where dismount would be useful in PvM, so I wouldn't mind to see it gone from all pets.
    And as long as changes don't affect PvM, go ahead and decrease pets damage on PvP by 50% and make players deal 100% more damage to them.
     
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  48. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    Just curious does dismount work on swamp dragon riders and savage riders
     
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  49. Polaris75

    Polaris75 Sage
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    What's necessary though is balance. Pvp'ering against a tamer should be fun for both sides. Dismount should be allowed; but dismount should only be allowed if a pet is 5 slots or something. It could also have a new timer where the pet cannot firebreath/cast/AI for about 5 seconds after.... only bite. :p :p
     
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  50. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Poobah
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    I was scratching my head over that as well. I mean... Chaos Dragoons and Elites are about the only riders I know of.. but no huge benefit to seeing them dismounted. Already plenty of mechanics in game to accomplish that any way. So in agreement with ya there.

    In slight disagreement with ya on the damage front though. I would say decrease and increase based on class of person fighting the pet. Increase damage by 100% across the board and tamers will once again be severely underpowered to certain temps.
     
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