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Mana Cost and AOE Specials for Pets

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Merus, Jun 12, 2017.

  1. Merus

    Merus Crazed Zealot
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    @Kyronix @Bleak

    Would you all please consider either lowering the mana cost or adding a longer cooldown for the AOE effects (Goo, etc). They are great additions to pets, but they seem to go off every few seconds which completely hogs all the pets mana.
     
  2. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    That would kinda suck tho if ur pet was built as an aoe machine. Maybe leave the aoe off if you want it to be a single target damager?
     
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  3. Merus

    Merus Crazed Zealot
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    I dont mind the AOE, I put it on there cause I want it, I just don't want it to use up every bit of mana as fast as the pet can get it leaving no mana for any other specials. Maybe make it scale based on the number of abilities a pet has or something.
     
  4. MissEcho

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    Need to lower the mana cost NOT make the cooldown longer, as it is sometimes I wait for ages for the goo etc to go off. Some pets are fine like the hiryu's but some pets like the cu use all their mana in the first minute of a fight and then sit on 0-50 mana for the rest of the time.
     
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  5. Merus

    Merus Crazed Zealot
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    Ya, I have energy on one of the new drakes with over 900 mana and its gone in under 2 minutes then never gets back above 40 because literally the moment it has enough mana the AOE is procing again.
     
  6. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    Without question DO NOT Make the COOL Down longer making the mana cost reasonable makes much more sense.
     
  7. Slayvite

    Slayvite Babbling Loonie
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    From what I've found with testing, the pet will always use the most expensive mana spell or ability 1st and as often as it can until it has used the mana pool.
    Even the Serp dragon with it's over 1k mana will burn thru it......and I mean burn!!! thru it's mana pool until it becomes a useless pet.
    Pet AI isn't up to having such small amount of mana, it just don't know what you want or expect of it in it's set up.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Now the Classic Phoenix knew exactly what was expected of it, kill stuff as quickly and as painfully as possible.....
    the new "fake" phoenix is already confused, it's like...."well i'll stand at Luna bank but if you think i'm gonna go hunting.....you picked the wrong pet, look at me.....i'm too pretty.....you go hunt i'm going to prune myself again"
     
    #7 Slayvite, Jun 13, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2017
  8. Sauteed Onion

    Sauteed Onion Lore Keeper
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    Hehe..
     
  9. Merus

    Merus Crazed Zealot
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    What I think we really need is a context menu on pets to set a Mana AI... Offensive, Balanced, Defensive... That way we can adjust the pets mana/special usage to suit the combat situation. Not sure how feasible that is though.
     
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  10. Lore

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    They need to balance my own toons mana before they balance the pets. My paladin is always out of mana.

    I don't see why we need pets as tanks and can't melee on our own characters.
     
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  11. Merus

    Merus Crazed Zealot
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    I would say if you're having major mana issues on a melee dexxer you're playing it wrong...
     
  12. PaithanTheElf

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    Yes, pets aren't overpowered enough, please lower their mana cost for spells.
     
  13. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    Cost of mana should not be lowered for any pet abilities. Many of these pets are already too over powered.

    However, the mana management of pets needs to be re-considered. It seems like with the new patch, the majority of pets just immediately dump all of their mana as quick as they can and then hardly have enough to keep themselves healed and still affectively cast spells and use specials or AOEs once they're in that 10-20 mana range. I wish there was a 'personality AI' option that allowed you to choose how quickly or slowly pets will use cast spells/use abilities (and other potential tweaks). It could be something added to the 'mastery' book.
     
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  14. Sauteed Onion

    Sauteed Onion Lore Keeper
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    I know we're not talking state of the art programming or anything but, I think our devs are skilled enough to take a cue from WOW maybe and give us some pet toggling options. I think in wow you can "make" your pet do things or use its specials instead of just letting it randomly act. Maybe increase the text sensitive command list so we can tell the pet to use a certain ability or something like that. I dunno. I'm happy we can micromanage more stuff, part of the addiction I suppose.
     
  15. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    And still only a fraction as powerful as player character templates.
     
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  16. Lore

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    There's no way a goat should be able to tank without moving things my 7x Legendary RP Paladin can't.
     
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  17. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    Yeah...and that's the way it should be.

    Pets should not be as powerful as real player characters.
     
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  18. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    If a goat is tanking better than a 7x Jeweled up paladin there is a problem but it ain't with the goat.

    Maybe in your opinion , but I would wager not in most tamers opinions. Since pets are castrated in PvP, how does a powerful PvM class of players impact your game one way or another? I can still clear a spawn with my sampire 2x faster than any pet. Have yet to find a PvP pet that is not total Cheez to kill. JUst trying to understand this mindset that believes tamers need nerfed back into a near useless class other than GDs and Dreads.
     
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  19. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Then what the &_#@$%&@#$)*@#$& is the point of being a TAMER?!?!? Why have the skill if it can't do anything??????


    What are TAmers supposed to be Freaking Cooks??????

    NO they are and should be a viable template that works as well as any other class..... which means their pet needs to be able to compete.
     
  20. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    Different templates should have different strengths and weaknesses. I'm sorry, but Tamers shouldn't be able to clear a spawn anywhere near as quick as a sampire. However, there are plenty of other things Tamers can do (like put a pet on Scalis) that Sampires really can't do. Tamers shouldn't be able to do absolutely all content in game at the highest level of any other template.

    A pet shouldn't be stronger than or as strong as a human player. They already have ALOT more skill points than human templates. This is Ultima Online, not Tamers Online.

    They ARE a viable template. Their pets CAN compete. You don't also need Lower Mana Cost on special abilities to make your template viable. This last publish made Tamers more powerful than ever, not sure what more you could possibly want.
     
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  21. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    Oh maybe to stop nerfing them just to appease people that are in no way affected by them.
     
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  22. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    ANd don't fear too much it is still very much Mages, Stealth Archers, Paladins and sammies online. The pet recamp did not even come close to changing that.
     
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  23. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    No one has suggested nerfing anything.

    And yes... everyone in game is affected by Tamers being overpowered by way of the game's economy.
     
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  24. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    See you are fixated on the misconception that us tamers are over powered. While we are considerable more powerful than we were a few months ago, still not even close to other templates. So A entire class of characters should be ruled out from the high end content? and not allowed to be a player in the high end economy?? Sure not seeing where tamers are over powered in comparision to any other template.
     
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  25. Fridgster

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    Viable and useful are two different things. If I hand a person a chainsaw and then hand another a hand saw then tell them each to cut down a tree would that be equal because both can cut down the tree? Of course not. You have demonstrated by these posts and previous posts that you have an agenda against tamers becoming truly viable in this game just as cobb paithan and a few others. @Uvtha So what was that comment about only wanting to nerf a bird? This is exactly what I meant. Some won't be happy until tamers are nerfed back to uselessness. Sad really.
     
    #25 Fridgster, Jun 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
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  26. Fridgster

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    Actually the raise in mana cost was a nerf. Like so often they used a sledgehammer to swat a fly.
     
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  27. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    I am still trying to get my mind around over powered tamers impacting the economy.......... What economy? Someone needs gold they just go to one of the gold sellers and pays $$ for as many plats as they want or need.... Need powerscrolls NP just buy them from the same sites or use the plats to buy them from the same peoples vendors that sold you the gold in the first place. Need that Blaze CU not to worry it can e yours for as low as $200 and up to $400 everything selling for 10x 15x what it is worth because gold is cheap to just buy........... I guess that is the economy **Overpowered** tamers might wreck LOL.
     
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  28. Fridgster

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    Lol what economy?
     
  29. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    OK Fix, Balance, Remove, Break, Constant whinning about Overpowered. The best argument I have seen todate is the LOL Overpowered Tamers wrecking the economy and no not just you. I had the displeasure of visiting Atlantic to deliver FREE power Scrolls for a friend to someone and got to watch a big whine fest upstairs Luna about over powered tamers ruining PvP and destroying the economy. The week before it was all about phoenix and other pets being too fast and OMG A pet dismounted a PvPr this has got to be nerfed....... errr I mean fixed.......... errrr balanced. And as soon as they break one thing and castrate the tamer a little bit...... the same crowd moves on to the next complaint about the over powered tamers. Can't we atleast just be honest here and call it what it is........... A handful of people just can't stomach the idea of a template different than the the cookie cutter Sammi, mage, archer, speed casting paladin being competitive in anything PvM or PvP.
     
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  30. Sauteed Onion

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    I dont think the powerscroll economy is wrecked because tamers are doing that. The reality is other templates are farming the scrolls to wreck the economy. And somehow the blame wiggles back to the tamer is op now.

    I just wish they would give cooks a buff in increased food menu options.. Cinnamon rolls, plus 5 hp regen hp stam int and 30 damage increaase and maybe 1000 luck, increases chance of rare drops by .5 % lasts three hou..

    Oh wait then chef would be OP.
     
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  31. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    I play my tamer more than any other template right now... simply because I don't agree with every call to make them even more powerful doesn't mean I have an 'agenda against tamers'. My problem here is that even after getting a MAJOR revamp for the Tamer class, there are a lot of folks still acting like they're victims because their pets can't do every encounter in game while they stand back and do next to nothing.

    Even before this patch, Tamers got a HUGE boost by being the best template for the Shadowguard encounter that produces the best loot in game. That has affected the economy in a huge way over the last year and half since ToL came out.
     
  32. Fridgster

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    So because a tamer can do one encounter better than most it is powerful enough? How would you rank a sampire? Your comments on effecting the economy are ridiculous. The 20 throwers farming legendaries is much more a problem not to mention the rmt. The economy started to die a very long time ago. Honestly even if we did have a stable economy I'm not sure your argument holds much weight. I could just as easily point to pvpers harming the economy by inflating the power scroll prices.
     
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  33. Cymidei

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    Yeah but those of us who are still left playing, playing in small communities and can't find huge groups to team up with. The availability of pets serves a purpose, we don't want to be forced to play sampires. It gives players choices about what they want to do and it's a good thing that will keep players in UO.
     
  34. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    That was simply one example. Aside from Champ spawns... what other content and encounters are Tamers limited from participating in?



    My economic comments aren't "ridiculous". When there is one poster suggesting that the changes don't affect anyone else, it has to be pointed out the economy affects everyone. Suggesting that making Tamers even more powerful doesn't effect the economy, and thus everyone in game, is what's ridiculous.

    I don't have an answer to 20 Throwers in the Blighted Grove, RMT, or PVPers cleverly controlling the Powerscroll market. Those are each separate and different topics entirely from the discussion about LMC and Tamers.

    I agree it gives some additional choices... but in no way shape or form should pets be the equivalent of having a second human player with you.
     
  35. Fridgster

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    A tamer is far less effective in groups of mobs. They can excel in one on one encouters. A sampire can take most bosses down and actually excel in groups of mobs. Heck when I'm fighting a boss on my sampire I want more mobs just so I can leech more mana and hps.

    Do you really believe that decreasing the amount of mana a bit would be that imbalancing? We are not asking for it to be buffed back up to pre-nerf level just enough to make the specials usable throughout a fight. Not just for the first 2 minutes!

    I'd argue the economy but it's obvious neither of us are going to budge much on that.
     
  36. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Doom... many of the bosses in the Abyss... anything that does high damage AoE so the tamer can't effectively heal their pet using the proper skill of VET... rather than having to use cheap excuses for Vetting like Greater Heals cast constantly or Consume Damage that takes a Level 3 Primer that either costs upwards of 50 mill.... or you need to be lucky to get but not in TRAM your not getting that... lucky to get anything more than a lvl 1 primer... in 100 spawns... let alone a 3 and even then certainly not a TAMING primer... so it's pay the Fel PvP crowd or don't have one.... and don't do anything that requires Consume Damage... or listen to everyone piss and moan because you don't have one... and ask you why you haven't spent the 40+++++ million on it...

    I have 9 tamers on GLs alone .... I can guarantee that not even 1/3 of them have a level 3 primer and they aren't likely to get one either...

    So NO not everyone can do things... not everyone can afford all the stuff... not everyone has 200+ hours a week to farm gold and do the grinds over and over and over again to get something worth the 40+ million to buy anything like a lvl 3 primer for even 1 character let alone 9 of them... and while Yes I suppose I "could" use 1 or 2 tamers... be thankful I don't multibox them... as I'm sure if I did I'd own at anything I wanted to... suppose I could even have 9 stealthing ninja archers... multiboxed in PvP... but I don't....

    Most the people I play with don't have time or money to be fully outfitted with all the latest crap in all the best gear with the flavor of the month templates...

    Used to be it didn't matter what you had... you just played to have fun... now it's impossible to get anyone wanting to do anything if it doesn't give out multimillions in gold, items or whatever... people don't want to do it because they don't have time... they need the lastest whatever to compete for the drop so they can sell that for multimillions so they can make their payday selling gold for $$.... That's what the game is becoming anymore and that is what is irking so many people... can't do much of anything for fun because some ()*@!&$($*&$& is going to find a way to exploit the crap out of it so they can make a buck and everyone else will just have to pay them to get whatever it is because it's too complicated for a regular joe player to do... or too much of a grind/bore/PITA....
     
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  37. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    Again I ask what economy? There is no economy unless you are one of the few exploiting it for the $$$ but that is not the game economy which is totally trashed anyway. Don't believe I ever suggested making pets more powerful, just that the Devs stop catering to the a handful of people whining about making pets LESS powerful. And pets are nowhere near the equal of having second human player, now it could be argued that the pets AI is more clever than some players but that is neither here or there.
     
  38. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    Does any template do well in Doom? Sampires get beat up there too.


    The refusal of certain players to go to Felucca and get a level 3 primer, or other scrolls, is the decision of that player. Fel activity is not impossible to accomplish: not on Atlantic, and not on low-pop servers either. You can also team up in a group or guild to go do these encounters rather than "Pay the Fel PVP crowd". You have more options than what has been implied in your response.

    Different templates have different advantages and disadvantages. If someone refuses to move out side of their comfort zone to play more than one template, then yes, they're not going to be able to do everything or afford everything.

    It doesn't require 200+ hours a week to be able to get good gear drops or enough gold to play this game at a comfortable rate.

    You don't need to have a mutli-platinum suit or the flavor of the month template to be an effective player. People with imbued gear or lower level artifact gear do just fine.

    There are plenty of people playing this game for more than just "multi millions". The people looking just to have fun and not worry about all of that are out there... but it probably requires moving beyond their comfort zone if they're on a low pop shard.

    That's simply not the case, but that is an entirely different topic that I will respectfully decline to discuss further on this particular thread in respect to the original posters' topic. Feel free to create a new thread about the economy.


    See... those pets already are more powerful than some players! ;)

    I kid ofcourse...

    Pet AI is something that needs to be re-considered (i.e., mana management). That much I would like to see... but not by the way of changing mana costs. However, I simply am not seeing eye to eye with you about Tamers being overpowered and underpowered, and will agree to disagree with you on that.
     
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  39. PaithanTheElf

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    I don't care about your trammie way of life. Tamers were more than viable in pvp before the patch. Now the pets are way overpowered in pvp. 200-240 skill points does not mean you should have something more powerful than a player PLUS 5 skills. Sorry not sorry.
     
  40. Mervyn

    Mervyn Babbling Loonie
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    my snake also shoots its goo too often...
     
  41. Fridgster

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    Lol. Need a towel?
     
  42. Fridgster

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    :eek:
     
  43. cobb

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    Tamers were better for Shadowguard even before the pet revamp, where the best loot in the game is found. Now they complain because they are not the best at everything?
     
  44. MissEcho

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    Actually our guild has found sampires are better for the shadowguard bosses, with healer and high level aoe specials. Just saying :p
     
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  45. Swordsman

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    When I see people kill Abcess in 10 seconds, tamers are not over-powered. Nerfing pets will just squeeze the poor and make the rich more rich.
     
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  46. transcendent

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    but that was a multi boxer running about 20 toons...
     
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  47. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    My comment was along the lines of simply because one pet, the only one causing a specific imbalance, is being altered that its not a reason to believe all pets would be so altered, and they weren't. I never suggested that there would be no changes that people might feel are nerfs, because that's always a possibility.

    Frankly I think you are overreacting to think tamers are going to be nerfed back to uselessness, since they were never useless, and even with the mana changes (which I think they need to look at) and other issues, pets are still very very strong, dramatically stronger than they were prepublish and the specific phoenix change had nothing to do with, the mana change. I personally feel that some elements of this publish are still imbalanced, and some things need to be toned down (rune corruption and lesser hiryus most glaringly) and others need to be toned up (slot power imbalance, pet AI, mana costs...).
     
  48. Turbo

    Turbo Adventurer

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    The only reason the ingame economy has changed is because there is a much higher demand for ps now they can be used on pets. It has nothing to do with which template is farming them but everything to do with the organised groups of people attempting to block everyone from obtaining them.

    The pvp complaining comes because tamers used to be a free kill to the so called pvpers and now that tamers have pets that can put up a fight they cant handle it and calls for nerfing are easier than adapting and proving you actually know how to play.
     
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  49. Tyrath

    Tyrath Crazed Zealot
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    That change to alter that one pet had a significant ripple effect through all pets and is obvious to anyone who spends a lot of time testing and training. The nerfs also have created some exploitable bugs that the Devs are aware of and I hear working on. It also created other bugs that are not exploitable and broke a few pets, particularly in the bushido family of pets. The mana fix was needed mainly IMO because I should not be able to park a hidden tamer at a spawn and watch a few hours of TV and leave a few hours later with a pack full of scrolls. Frankly nerfing tamers back to being useless other than having GDs as PvM meat shields is exactly what the vast minority is calling for.
     
  50. TheDrAJ

    TheDrAJ Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Alpha and Omega

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    It seems like a few very vocal people can influence the direction of this game. Nerf this nerf that and all for their play style.

    I think mana regeneration rates on pets should be increased significantly. Make int useful on a pet by making a very large increase in mana generation with increased intelligence.
     
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