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Endless Journey- for Dev's and Vet's

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Elaysia, Apr 15, 2018.

?

What do you think?

  1. Yes, I would like to see UO get some love

    73.7%
  2. No, I'm greedy and want UO to myself! My precious =P

    26.3%
  1. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Updated with new housing idea

    Hello,

    It's been awhile since I've posted on Stratics I used to be a really big part of the community back in the day. Of course I keep up with Ultima, it was a huge part of my life and inspired me to become a game designer myself.

    Enough introduction from me, why I'm here is because I'm excited that UO has finally got to the point where it can now at least be played and experienced by everyone. However, as you probably guessed I have some really carefully thought out suggestions for how Endless Journey would do what it is intended to do-- bring in new and returning players and steer them towards subscribing, rejuvenate the economy, and of course increase the population of empty shards.

    I'm very aware that this is a delicate balance since we are talking about a 20 year old game with dedicated veteran's that has kept UO alive all these years.

    This leads me to first addressing the vet's, how bad do you want to see UO to thrive? Are you willing to give a bone to new and returning players without getting upset?

    From my experience (including myself) most UO vets are not greedy so long as they are respected and giving the credit they deserve.

    So let's get to it...

    1. Keep the 2 character and weight limit. Allow 2 pack animals and option to buy more pack animals in the store, but not characters.

    2. Limited bank storage, but allow players to buy extra in the store

    3. Limit how much resources an EJ player can do a day- 2 to 3 hours in only one gathering: mining, fishing, lumberjack etc. Allow players to increase this with a purchase of elixir in the store for up to one extra hour.

    4. Limit crafting to 2 to 3 hours in the same way only allowing one: blacksmithing, tailoring etc. Once the player has used up their time a message could say "You've exhausted your crafting for the day" and again allow the player to buy elixirs in the store for an extra hour.

    5. Allow EJ players to own a small house, if you don't think they deserve a customizable one at least allow them to choose one of the smaller premade houses. UPDATE: Use small house deeds (could be customizable) and turn into rental house deeds, that can't be sold. OR just give EJ player's a start up house. The house deed would have a time limit, and then at the end of the time limit a pop up can appear saying "Subscribe" to keep this house. If not, then the house decays and their stuff goes into the warehouse for a limited time for them to retrieve and move to their limited bank storage. This will at least give the player time to mess with the house and want to keep it. You could also allow them to buy more time in the store.

    6. Allow 3 vendors with the option to purchase more

    7. Allow purchase of small boats only

    8. Allow EJ players to participate in champions but limit them to only obtaining lesser scrolls

    9. Allow gifts, but only one per account

    I'm going to end the list here as this is all that is needed to keep EJ players logging in and dreaming big. The purpose is entice the player into wanting that bigger house for more storage, to get better scrolls or to be able to mine all day.

    Please remember sharing is caring, and UO deserves to be loved by all.

    Thanks for reading!
     
    #1 Elaysia, Apr 15, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2018
  2. celticus

    celticus Lore Master

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    These are great suggestions. I think the Devs should consider all these. Thank you for posting.
     
  3. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    Absolute no to the housing. Firstly, the housing is non-instanced and this will mean EJs will compete with subscribers for space. Bad idea, since there is little housing space and when the EJs fill up all the spots, how are you enticing them to subscribe for bigger houses when there is no space? You didnt think this through. Secondly, no sense in muddying the waters there. Housing in any shape or form should remain a perk of subscribing. It's one of UO's top 5 USP's, and I wouldn't create any grey areas here. There is also the point that UO's complexity and depth are really daunting, and the less clear the lines are between f2p and subscribing, the more lost they get in the cacophony of features and options,.. and this also potentially hurts marketing. The contrast should be stark for some of these USPs: Free - no housing. Subscribed - housing. Too many of these "buts" in the perk list is just muddying it all. Due to UO's game design the perk/non-perk list is already too much like that. We need a punchy, simple and enticing contrast.

    The extra storage you mention on top of the limited bank box the devs announced could consist of their originally announced vault feature. But with a limited bank box I really am not sure if this worth investing any dev time in.

    Small boats may be okay. The rest of the points seem to be based on having some extra paid-for options for people who insist on wasting their money on micro-transactions instead of subscribing,.. which people admittedly usually do, so those things could be put in for revenue. To be sure, besides the storage goof, EJ is pretty decent in terms of offerings. Not that improvements can't be made,.. but there is a ton of content for EJs to enjoy. A ton. EJ's are already getting a limited bankbox as many advocated for it, and in my opinion as also a game designer/developer, they are getting plenty taste of the game.

    To make UO thrive:
    • The subscription perks need to be beefed up and modernized as I suggested in this thread. It needs to be a clear and fairly brief list, with the rest as expanded points.
    • Ultima Online's unique selling points need to be clearly communicated and there needs to be marketing based around them.
    • The download-install-account management-new-player experience process needs to be cleaned up and streamlined.
    • Any attempts to access subscriber-only options by EJs needs to trigger a pop-up with subscriber perks and easy process to subscribe.

    Make it easy to start an account, download the game, learn the game, and subscribe = fun and profit for everyone.
     
    #3 Phantasmagorian, Apr 15, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2018
  4. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Stratics Forum Moderator
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    I like all of the suggestions except them owning a house. Housing is the #1 reason people subscribe so adding even small houses will just cause current subscribers to open multiple EJ accounts, place multiple small houses, and then close their extra subscribed accounts.

    If EJ has access to small boats, then they can use the boat as storage instead of a house like people used to do in the old days. They just need to refresh it.
     
  5. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    WOW LMAO at your NO choice and my question is if you were so active then why are you posting on a visitor level account? Are you trying to set up VETs as a bunch of uncaring players, shame on you. Hell yes we care about UO and if you bothered reading posts you would have seen that storage was being fought for very hard by us uncaring/greedy vets. Right now there is nothing wrong with EJ accounts other than the Bank Storage and the DEVs are fixing that. You want more goodies than pay a sub.
     
    #5 Lord Frodo, Apr 15, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  6. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    I'm definitely not trying to offend, that was to get a laugh. Hmm, I have a very old stratics account I'm just not sure why it isn't posting as such. I'm sure there's a lot of people here that can vouch for me if anyone's been around long enough.

    I've put many years into UO so this is why and I know the ins and outs. I ran the first auction house on Lake Superior and kept it going for many years and had a guild with well over 100 members, allied with the guild Vet for those of you that remember. I've also had many of my suggestions be used in Ultima: The bulletin board, and mailbox are just two of those.

    So please ask before you judge so quickly. Oh and no not every Vet is greedy, so please only speak for yourself. :)
     
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  7. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Stratics Forum Moderator
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    Your new account and old account can be combined if an administrator can locate the old one. You would need to provide the information for it though. I can start a PM between you and the administrator who does it if you are interested in getting the old account back.
     
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  8. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    That would be great, thank you so much!
     
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  9. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    It is not greed or selfishness that makes us Vets not want EJ accounts having access to housing...

    It's the knowledge of many years of playing that tells us that while "some" returning vets would be fine and actually a benefit with housing... however, it's those that we KNOW are there which seek to abuse the "free" play that ruin that prospect for those who wouldn't... and we simply can not afford to give scripters and bots that opportunity.
     
  10. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Right, back in 2009 I made another post here about a few other suggestions I thought would be great in UO which did make its way into the game. In that post I mentioned going F2P in a limited way and at that time I said that housing shouldn't be included.

    However, I think with the other limitations I mentioned in the post it would help with the bot issue you're talking about. If the EJ player was limited in weight, gathering , and crafting then it could work.

    So if the player has 2 hours of mining and crafting they would need to decide how to use their time. For instance: 1 hour of mining, 1 hour of lumber jacking/ 1 hour of smelting, 1 hour of wood working and let's say they automated the process how much could a bot do in 2 hours a day? How much of a negative impact would that create? If the player base increases so will the demand so I believe the vet's would still prosper much more than the EJ account.
     
  11. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Yeah, I just don't think that subscription is going to work unless the price comes down to about 8 to 10 dollars. Also, as I mentioned they would need to log in daily to keep the house and depending on the shard there is nothing but empty space right now for housing so I don't think it would compete since most people today are all playing F2P games.

    Edit: Oh and don't forget, you can demolish the house and build a bigger house in that same area. I actually did this several times before getting a bigger house.
     
  12. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    It is $10 a month
     
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  13. ShriNayne

    ShriNayne Lore Master

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    If you get a 6 month code it's only £6.50 a month, otherwise it's £11.70 or somewhere in that region, I spent years paying too much before I discovered game-time codes. :oops:
     
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  14. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    You can't reason from the current situation, if you're strivign fo the game to thrive. And when it would thrive, non-instanced housing with your suggestion would mean countless players would squat and yes, totally free accounts would compete with paying subscribers for space. In a thriving UO, these spots would be squatted and sold outside the game, among other things. It's a bad idea for this reasons and the other ones I mentioned earlier. The point about demolishing is pretty much irrelevant to the big picture of your mechanism.

    The subscription is already $10, but only if you buy it in bulk. I do think there might be something to tweak there in terms of price elasticity. But it would likely be dangerous for BS to lower it, without having cleaned up and streamlined the processeses I mentioned earlier:

    • The subscription perks need to be beefed up and modernized as I suggested in this thread. It needs to be a clear and fairly brief list, with the rest as expanded points.
    • Ultima Online's unique selling points need to be clearly communicated and there needs to be marketing based around them.
    • The download-install-account management-new-player experience process needs to be cleaned up and streamlined.
    • Any attempts to access subscriber-only options by EJs needs to trigger a pop-up with subscriber perks and easy process to subscribe.
    You don't want to kill your conversions, due to not having these things in order.
     
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  15. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Okay so with that out of the way, let's say everyone buys in bulk or game codes. You're still not going to see EJ revive UO like other F2P games because of the same exact reason you're stating "housing" because as you and so many have said housing is the biggest draw to UO. If you want free players to stick around and spend in the store, then you're going to have to give them a reason too.

    Youtuber's aren't even going to touch talking about Endless Journey after looking at all the cannot's,. Endless Journey's goal should be about hooking the player, right? So what in UO hooks people? This is why I'm trying so hard to get this message across and have for years. Do you know how many people have waited for UO to go F2P? It would also bring in all the people that are playing UO free servers.

    Collecting stuff in the game (and there's a ton of it) will require a place for them to interact with that stuff. As you yourself has said, the housing is that place, boats are cool but it's not enough. UO is completely designed around taking your stuff back to the homestead, crafting and selling it.

    The dev's can still work around this housing issue. Another way this could be done is have those small house deeds turn into rental house deeds, that can't be sold. Perhaps the housing deed can have a time limit, and then at the end of the time limit a pop up can appear saying "Subscribe" to keep this house. If not, then the house decays and their stuff goes into the warehouse. This will at least give the player time to mess with the house and want to keep it.
     
    #15 Elaysia, Apr 16, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2018
  16. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Well, it's not so well known and new players definitely wouldn't know this right away. They would be looking at the website that says 12.99, correct?
     
  17. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    Housing is one of the USPs, but not the only one. I know many have waited for UO to go f2p and I think it's great that it did. the free versus paid options and perks should be fine-tuned as I myself have argued. I think those parts are very important. I get that you think playing around with the housing in some form will help entice free players to subscirbe, so...

    Here's what I would consider at most: the house of commons (new building) with rooms-for-rent for free players. They would be the size of a small house and would be instanced. You can place items and mess around like everyone else. I would let it expire within 72 hours. It can only be access by characters on that account. No co-owners, friends or visitors. So you need to log in at least every 3 days. As soon as you subscribe, it becomes permanent and free (so long you pay your subscription). But all your stuff goes into a moving place as soon as you place a house. The devs would have to figure out how to prevent people hoarding storage this way though.
     
  18. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    I think there could be price elasticity to consider here, but the team would have to do market research for that. I can imagine introducing modern perks as I suggested plus a $10 a month pay-per-month price could yield many more subscribers. As I've explained in other threads (not many seem to get the principle), is that sometimes lowering your price can mean making many more sales and thus more profit. If you sell your ice cream at $10 and sell 10 a day, but with a price of $2 you sell 300 a day... well, then... you lower your price to make $600 a day instead of making only $100 a day.
     
  19. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    If it would be easier for the dev's to create instanced housing that could work, but I think it should be longer than 72 hours and more like a week. If the player subscribes, then their stuff should just stay in that instanced house until they place a house. Once they place a house, it should be clear that nothing else can go into that storage, and they can pull it out into their new house when their ready.
     
    #19 Elaysia, Apr 16, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2018
  20. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    Yes, I already said that as soon as they subscribe they don't pay rent for their instanced apartment and they don't need to refresh it either anymore. They can keep using it and as soon as they place a house, a moving crate is generated at the rental with all the contents that were in the rental apartment.

    Maybe a week could work, but the team would rightly be worried about people creating EJ accounts to use this rental apartment storage.

    What's a possible added benefit to this, is that subscribers who can't find a house spot for themselves, can get a rental for free.
     
  21. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    If the player subscribes, why would it matter if it sits there? If the EJ account used the apartment for storage they could only do so for a week, and then they would have a time limit to get their stuff moved to their limited storage (bank) or it goes bye bye.
     
  22. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    It doesn't matter if it sits there, unless they actually place a house somewhere. You can only have one house per account, and that would include this rental.

    I thought the 72 hrs/week thing we were discussing pertained to refreshing it. So an EJ account could theoretically refresh it forever, so long they log in to refresh it within the interval set.
     
  23. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Oh okay, I thought you meant they would lose it after that amount of time. Yeah, they shouldn't be able to refresh it forever, maybe buy more time in the store.
     
  24. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    You do understand that there are no house deeds and haven't been for a long time, it's called a house placement tool.
     
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  25. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Yes, I used one for my Zento house but thanks for the reminder. I think for this purpose they could still use one of the old deeds and make it a rental time limited deed. Unless it would be easier for them to use the placement tool.
     
  26. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    So then you have no clue that an old house deed that is in your pack auto turns into a house placement tool at relog-in or new day.
     
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  27. Lord Arm

    Lord Arm Lore Keeper

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    all I see is a big loss in revenue by giving EJ accounts some of the things people are asking for. a lot of paying accounts will be changed to EJ/ free to play. I don't see anyone worried about this. EJ accounts will just be exploited mostly by existing/returning players, which I wont go into. does anyone really think we will get enough new players with lack of advertising and enough new players that will stay long enough to learn the game. still waiting for a video library to help new/returning players. maybe start with how to set up/make new account ect....
     
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  28. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    I do think they should be able to refresh it forever, so long they keep logging in.
    Many people are talking about making EJ restrictive enough, so I don't know why you don't see anyone worried about this. In this very thread it's been said. I think housing is a no-no, but this rental idea I mentioned earlier could work. A very restrictive, instanced "place of your own" could give people a little taste. If the team follows what I've suggested in several places, which is a prompt with subscribing perks that shows up as soon as you want to access what is normally a sub feature or go over your EJ limit (bank/storage/housing etc.)... then it will work quite neatly. Don't make it so an EJ player can't use a house placement tool. Make it so that when they double cclick it, the subscribe perk list shows up.

    And already, with this "lack of advertising" there have been countless new players dripping in. This is a soft launch. They seem to be dedicated to making it work. Just before EJ many here were saying we won't see anyone coming back. Yeah, sure. Atlantic and Europa have countless returning players. Then many said EJ failed out of the gate due to lack of storage. Well, they've added a limited bank box. The negativity here is getting really old.
     
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  29. kaio

    kaio Lore Keeper
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    I don't like these suggestions at all.
    I think the "new" model does seem promising. If BS would just start to add new stuff to the shop that people would actually buy then the game would thrive alot better.
    I would also like to see EJ accounts not being able to use _ANY_ vet rewards at all.
    Reasoning for not allowing EJ accounts to be able to use vet rewards, is to make EJ accounts buy special ETHY mounts/soulstones from the shop, again to help BS make some $$$

    A Retro 7x7 house deed i think is a great idea but limit them to 1 pr account regardless of status. But make the EJ accounts pay rent each month like 50k gold or something, they also need to refresh their house each month.
    This would benefit both BS and the game, it would benefit BS in the way that they get income in form of $$$, and the game in the sense that it also gets an gold-sink.
    It would also make alot of the newcomers more attached to the game by owning a small piece of the world.
    + it would make me super happy, i always wanted a small plot out in the woods :)
     
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  30. Treasure Hunter

    Treasure Hunter Journeyman

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    Looks like a 2018 political poll.
    Two options.

    Option #1 = yes, we agree with you.
    Option #2 = we're all greedy for not agreeing with you.
     
  31. Cyrah

    Cyrah Lore Master
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    No houses ever with EJ please. Or the same thing will happen that has before. What? Players place smalls anywhere they please, grandfathered and they never return. They will find some way to park them forever again as EJ houses. Since Tram began there are such houses on LS. Why? So they can say oh yea I have free grandfathered houses. Now it will be oh yea I have free EJ houses. Somehow I just know that any EJ house and all maybe will stick around forever. Go by LS moonglow Tram graveyard road and see one accounting dispute for over ten years. Account cancelled, billing did not cancel it. When billing snapped they asked for back payment, no it was your error not player's. So house sits. So will EJ houses.

    When I see in chat almost every day I play yet another trade window scam I am so convinced that any housing done with EJ will end badly. Good for cheaters as always, bad for honest players. Bitter, well heck yes. This stuff has gone on way too long. Please do not give cheaters yet another way to cheat. Want a house? Pay please.
     
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  32. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    Rentals int he form I suggested only. Housing is a no, no.

    And 50k a month is not any sort of meaningful gold sink, Bs wouldn't be earning anything on this either.
     
  33. kaio

    kaio Lore Keeper
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    But they are paying, they buy the deed from the ingame shop. After a month they have to refresh they house, so it won't go idoc.
     
  34. kaio

    kaio Lore Keeper
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    I do not know how the ingame shop works, but i do know that unless EA makes money they can and they will shut donw UO.
     
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  35. petemage

    petemage Slightly Crazed

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    As I see it, old 20 y/o vets lobbying against every change for the better are the worst issue UO got..

    But I also don't see that change anytime soon.
     
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  36. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    It should be rentals in the manner I described. It could still be that they have to buy their rental access in the shop. But they wouldn't take space in the lands, since rentals would be at the vault building.

    Your suggestion goes way too far.
     
  37. Uvtha

    Uvtha Stratics Legend
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    I don't like the idea of creating artificial barriers just to have some item to sell in the store. I think the EJ experience should be as free and open as possible, including regular bank boxes. I'm even cool with EJ accounts getting colored resources, but maybe just not the top 2 of each kind, and barbed. I'd rather entice people into subbing with a good free experience than invent ways to nickel and dime them.

    The idea I think is that you want people to play and enjoy the game enough to know that they want a house. Houses are really all the draw you need, as not only is house customization one of the more unique and entertaining elements of the game, a really high percentage of content requires you to have a house to take advantage.

    Also your poll might be a little biased. :p
     
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  38. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Give me! Give me! Give me! Sounds like alls you people want is to make it where they can shut down some of their paying accounts and let them go EJ and won't EA love that. EJ accounts have far more cans than the old 14 day free trial account and alls you see is a small group of people wanting more and I truly have to ask why. Is this really for the benefit of UO or is it their greed starting to show. EJ accounts need to be enough to let you see what UO is about and it should never be intended to let you play forever on a FREE account. You want the perks then sub.
     
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  39. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Does it matter? The developer's still have this code and can use it to create what I'm talking about.
     
    #39 Elaysia, Apr 17, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2018
  40. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Truthfully, yes I do think UO could get new player's from doing EJ right and the returning player's would help it do just that, but EJ isn't F2P it's an endless trial and I can promise you it won't work for bringing in returning player's yet alone new ones.
     
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  41. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Definitely!! My first house was a small tower and I loved it so much, but you know how it is after awhile you really want that big house.
     
  42. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Thanks for taking the time to read the post and give us some great feedback. It's a joke and I don't deal in politics when it comes to gaming, sheesh people lighten up.
     
  43. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    Okay I understand, but please read what my idea is first on housing before you worry about houses everywhere lol. I'll help you though since some people hate to read long posts. The house can't be sold, it's a rental and it expires after a certain time either allowing the player to buy more time from the store or subscribe; If they don't then it goes poof.
     
  44. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    I don't think apartments really fit in the UO world, so I'm still suggesting housing as a rental deed that expires and either the player buys more time in the store or subscribe.
     
  45. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    LOL, no no the poll is goood. Regardless, I get ya I really do, but there is NO WAY you will ever convince anyone to go that far with F2P. I personally wouldn't push for the nickel and dime approach, but it is what most people are used to and everyone plays free games now, be it mobile, MMO's what have you.
     
    #45 Elaysia, Apr 17, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2018
  46. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    Rentals at the vault building or nothing. Non-instanced land should remain the domain of subscribers.
     
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  47. Cyrah

    Cyrah Lore Master
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    Elaysia your ideas are not the issue. Cheaters are. They will find a way to exploit anything in the game. So please do not give them another opportunity. Want a house? Pay please.
     
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  48. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    I'm trying to be a voice of reason here, since it's clear that UO has definitely created a really big barrier between vet's and returning/new player's I mean they won't even let EJ's post on UO forums. I already put 8 years of my life into UO, took a break for quite awhile and then came back for a few more years. So I wish people would stop talking to me like I'm some kind of freeloader, lol. I honestly am trying to make people see the big picture and while I understand cheater's have always been a huge issue in UO, there's ways if people would just try to see it.
     
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  49. Phantasmagorian

    Phantasmagorian Seasoned Veteran
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    Many people see it and want improvements. Not everyone has to agree that housing is necessary for EJ.
     
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  50. Elaysia

    Elaysia Journeyman
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    That's true, but if you want improvements then you're going to have to see reason.