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Eagle/Phoenix

Discussion in 'UHall' started by PaithanTheElf, May 16, 2017.

  1. RhelHalcyon

    RhelHalcyon Journeyman

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    When you get me the theory crafting on how much stamina 30 SR actually gives per time period, then we can see if it'll "break" anything. Until then, its moot to keep saying "30 SR!"

    Then we can compare the regen given vs the amount drained per point of damage and have real facts to discuss.
     
  2. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    with 30 stam regen, you gain 30 stam every 10 seconds
     
  3. PaithanTheElf

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    I fight everyone when I see them in game 1v1 and have a winning record over the few people that managed a kill on me. Same applies with group fights, so it doesn't really matter you you are it was just a question of how bad you are- which is why ya don't want to say your chars name. All good though, continue the troll. lol.
     
  4. RhelHalcyon

    RhelHalcyon Journeyman

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    Source? Because with 30 MR you definitely dont get 30 mana every 10 seconds.
     
  5. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    MR has diminishing returns....

    Of course you don't get 30 mana every 10 seconds
     
  6. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    RhelHalcyon likes this.
  7. RhelHalcyon

    RhelHalcyon Journeyman

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    Ok and how much sta is lost per point of damage on a bird? Then we can calculate if 30 sta every ten seconds will be more than enough to keep the bird at 150 stamina.
     
  8. NinjaSampire

    NinjaSampire Seasoned Veteran

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    .3 per second x 10 seconds is only 3 stam though right not 30 in 10 seconds?
     
  9. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    It is 0.1 stamina per second per point of stamina regen. So it is actually 0.1x 30= 3 stamina per second. So it would be 30 stamina in 10 seconds
     
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  10. RhelHalcyon

    RhelHalcyon Journeyman

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    This is assuming that pets follow the same rules for players - and in a lot of cases they don't. They don't even have standard rules for creatues as some tames have a higher innate mana regen. This may be the case for stamina as well. It'd need to be tested.

    Stamina per second with 30 SR, find out how much stamina is lost per point of damage, and then calculate whether or not 30 SR would negate the loss of stamina per damage taken. There are other factors as well, like what % of speed is dropped per point of stamina lost etc.

    Really hard to prove your concern without testing and theory crafting. Although based on the devs making the decision they did - I imagine they did that testing internally and came to the conclusion that loss of stamina reducing movement speed was more than sufficient.
     
  11. Fridgster

    Fridgster Slightly Crazed
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    You folks also realize there are other ways to drop stamina... like stamina leech, stamina drain, and mace masteries? Like I said try to adapt instead of trying to make everyone adapt to you. Wow could I go into a rant about the parody to the current state of the world.
     
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  12. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Leech doesn't take stamina, and mace mastery has no abilities that lowers stamina, only swing speed.

    I do agree people SHOULD adapt, and I think the taming upgrades give tamers a big leg up in being competitive in pvp, but there should be reasonable balance. You can't add just anything and cry "adapt!" when something is grossly overpowered. Sometimes things need to be toned down.
     
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  13. Fridgster

    Fridgster Slightly Crazed
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    Your correct on leech sorry. I do believe the mace drops stamina as well (perhaps inherent? ). As I mentioned earlier I thought the current proposed nerf was not only acceptable but needed. Do you feel it needs more of a nerf than what's proposed?
     
  14. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    If the proposed nerf doesn't fix the problem, yeah. Yes, maces do inherent stamina damage, but it's not a major increase to regular stamina loss, and with 30 stamina regen, it's impact is even further limited. I'm not sure on the numbers with stamina drain, but it's certainly not a consistent means of managing the stamina of something. Pierce from fencing mastery actually does lower stam, so does crushing blow on slow weapons, but I feel like being prepared via these methods just to hopefully slow a phoenix down is a pretty strong power limiter simply to deal with one tactic.
     
  15. RhelHalcyon

    RhelHalcyon Journeyman

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    Crushing Blow removes 10 pts of stamina. Which is probably what Fidgester was thinking about. Phoenix are not grossly overpowered, they can be killed and despite what people have claimed they can also be out ran. It's not like they're zooming up to people and one-shotting them. If you're not adjusting to handling them with available counters, then that doesn't mean they're over powered. There is a system of checks and balances in place.

    Also, tamers getting a big leg up means what? The template, played by anyone can actually kind of be competitive in PvP?
     
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  16. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Crushing blow only does stamina damage on 3+ second swing speed weapons, ones that are useless for pvp, but, yes, I did mention it in a previous post. I don't think anyone is claiming they are running up to people and 1 shotting them, or saying they cannot be killed, or outran on horseback. The "available counters" are very weak for any other purpose than slowing down phoenixes, I don;t think it's reasonable for people to drop their own power a significant level

    As for "there is a system for checks and balances in place", thats true, and the system is dev oversight, as alerted by players. The game is not so well designed that it can prevent any imbalance that could potentially occur any more than the devs can foresee every imbalance in things they introduce. Sometimes things are too powerful, and they get adjusted. It's just a natural part of the development process.

    By "tamers getting a big leg up" I mean compared to what they were before which was a group only or niche solo is now a much more functional and viable choice in pvp, and it still would be even if they slowed down phoenixes. Of course the vast majority (at least) of the people in this thread demanding that pvpers "adapt" don't pvp, and probably haven't even tamed a phoenix, and would be all but completely unaffected if devs even went so far as to simply delete the pet (which I do NOT advocate, just making a point) so... I doubt any of them care if pvpers are more functional with pets.
     
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  17. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Kind of competitive? If you wanna know what the most powerful templates are in pvp, just watch yew gate for a couple days. You'll notice right now, its fully of tamers.
     
  18. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    The other element of the phoenix, that really is all pets but the phoenix takes the most advantage of it, is the dismount ability.

    If you are on foot with a nightmare, and it dismounts a player, you are now on mount timer. if you are mounted (like on an ethy) and your pet dismounts someone, you do not get dismounted. So Basically... you are able to run around dismounting people while never dismounting yourself. How is that not being addressed thus far?
     
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  19. Fridgster

    Fridgster Slightly Crazed
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    Pvm wise I would have no objection to the removal of dismount from the pet entirely. Honestly I'd encourage it since it's kinda worthless in pvm thus a waste of a proc/mana drain
     
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  20. TheDrAJ

    TheDrAJ Certifiable
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    Is this a high probability ie what is the pet dismount frequency?

    Course if ya kill the pet owner the pet will probably stop and if you kill the pet it, it surely will.
     
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  21. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    This is probably the easiest way to deal with this. The effect on pvm would be zero, and super speed birds would still have pvp value.
     
    #271 Uvtha, Jun 1, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
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  22. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    High enough if the pets only melee ability is Dismount. Doesn't matter, this should not be a feature. I really doubt it was ever intended to have a way to allow to dismount while maintaining mount yourself. Why else would dismount timers exist?
     
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  23. Scott

    Scott Certifiable
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    This is very scenario based. I was dismounted 3 times in under a minute. (Bit me 8 times - dismounted 3 of the 8)
    The only thing that saved me was placement (between houses and using walls). I ultimately couldn't get away... tamer was a gargoyle mage, flying and just cast weaken on me as the Phoenix took me out... you can get away mounted. You cannot get away dismounted.

    Last night I had 4 Phoenix's from the same guild on me... I didn't get half a screen...


    If you can kill the owner of a Phoenix and it's agro'ed on you - the Phoenix stays on you... after the death of the owner.

    All the people who say adapt- either they don't pvp at all, or they have no real pvp time dealing with the topic at hand...



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  24. CovenantX

    CovenantX Crazed Zealot
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    Focus skill adds stamina regen as well, I don't remember how much you get though, I want to say it's ~20 at 100.0, may be incorrect with the exact numbers, but it does* in fact increase stamina regeneration.


    I also haven't come across any pet that doesn't have Focus since this revamp went live.


    I think the changes mentioned in this thread that make the most sense without screwing anyone over.

    Cap all tamed pets at 150/150 Dex/stamina respectively.
    Dismount should not have a chance to go off unless the controlling tamer is already on foot.

    or maybe Dismount should be replaced on all new and existing pets with Double Strike*, which doesn't seem to be on the list of special abilities...
    *it could just be the pets I've been leveling though, because some other npcs have this ability.
     
    #274 CovenantX, Jun 1, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
  25. Fridgster

    Fridgster Slightly Crazed
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    I disagree with the dex/stam nerf. It losing stamina when struck (as proposed in meet and greet) and the removal of dismount would be more than enough
     
  26. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    That honestly sounds like a win for pvmers.
     
  27. CovenantX

    CovenantX Crazed Zealot
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    Right, it is, assuming NPC/Pet specials are fixed by that I mean, things like:

    Crushing blow gaining 0% bonus damage.
    Double strike seems to have a 100% chance to miss with the 2nd attack.
    Armor Ignore goes off but does no damage sometimes.
    Bleed hits the target when the user misses with the initial attack... just about every special has problems like this when pets or npcs perform them.

    Double strike would be a very viable or even the best option on certain pets.
    Armor Ignore is currently the best option for most pets though.
     
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  28. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    Some good points. So it seems the Phoenix can actually regenerate more than 30 stamina every 10 seconds. I can see some people scrolling their Phoenix to 120 Focus. This is why I'm doubting the effectiveness of the proposed fix by the devs when their plan depends on the Phoenix stamina loss. You can even put Chiv on it and it would cast Divine Fury, instantly replenishing its stamina.

    Also agree about the dismount. Very important in my opinion, but this point seems to have been ignored by the devs. Pets should not be able to dismount if the owner is mounted.
     
  29. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    found the formula.

    Focus – Ultima Online

    Every 10 points in Focus gives you 1 stamina regen.
    So 120 Focus=12 stam regen
    120 Focus + 30 Stam regen = 42 stam regen total.

    The phoenix is going to be difficult to slow down when it regenerates 42 points of stamina every 10 seconds.
     
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  30. CovenantX

    CovenantX Crazed Zealot
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    Yea, most phoenixes would regen 40 stam/sec because 120 focus isn't worth the scroll usage for the stam/mana regen, especially when dismount & magery are the only things the phoenix would spend mana on.


    It would be difficult to slow down even without stamina regen, because of the difference in Hp/Stamina

    an NPC with 500 HP doesn't even lose stamina unless it's hit very hard (~40+ damage) or it's hit with something that specifically does stamina damage like Macing or Crushing blow or the obvious bird slayer talisman (Lol...) but hey, If you're playing a mage... you're absolutely screwed unless you just hang out in places you could easily teleport through obstructions, so the pet is unable to follow...

    of course, most people wouldn't be into going through all that trouble and they'd just quit pvping. (like so many already have...)
     
  31. NinjaSampire

    NinjaSampire Seasoned Veteran

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    I do agree pets should not be able to dismount if the owner is mounted, with that; gargs shouldnt be able to fly during that time either.
     
  32. CovenantX

    CovenantX Crazed Zealot
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    Hehe, That sounds like a lot of mana regen but you can actually get around 3.6 mana/sec with 30 MR 120 med/focus which would give you ~36 mana every 10 seconds. (passively)

    Most every pet would have at least ~3.2 mana regen per second, due to 100 med & focus + the 30 MR from the pet imbuing process.
    Mana is only a problem on pets because they have no LMC. :D
     
  33. RhelHalcyon

    RhelHalcyon Journeyman

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    Where I can agree, and I agree dismount is useless in PVM, if you're mounting with a phoenix you're either getting a 3 slot (which is pretty weak to begin with) and taming it up to a 4 slot where it isn't anywhere near as powerful as a possible 5 slot. The tamer would need to make choices between HP or Str - as these will be relatively low, and when trained take up the majority of the pets points. You might be able to do something like boost str, HP and Sta regen. You definitely wouldn't be able to boost HP, Str, HPR, SR, MR, and add skills. Phoenix do not come naturally with dismount.

    Where it is possible to get a 3 slot with high str, the majority of them I've tamed (about 7 - thats not including the ones I killed to cycle past) have had sub 600 str AND low HP (350ish).

    Obviously doesn't apply to gargoyles - but since returning, I've not seen a lot of those around??

    I do agree though - dismount should only be used on another player when said player is dismounted.

    That and I'm pretty sure their skills cost more to use. Whirlwind on a player is max 15 mana, on my lesser hiryu, who loves to spam it against 1 opponent, its like 40 mana. lol
     
  34. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Pvm training and pvp training aren't necessarily the same process. Str for example isn't that important, as it's primary focus is dismounting you. For pvp all it needs is dismount, maxed resists (fire physical energy anyway), some scrolled skills, and now SR. You can get all of that done in one upgrade. I mean it's not hypothetical, people are doing it.
     
  35. RhelHalcyon

    RhelHalcyon Journeyman

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    So the issues more with dismount than it is with the phoenix specifically?
     
  36. King Greg

    King Greg Sage

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    The problem is a combination of it's spells, speed, and ability to dismount while the owner remains on mount. Removing the dismount would just make it an annoying speeder pigeon.
     
  37. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I think so. While phoenix will still probably spell doom for any mage on foot (which I think is imbalanced), at least if tamers would have to be dismounted themselves to dismount someone and so they could be dealt with more easily. It would be a better fix than the currently suggested one I would wager.
     
  38. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    B24E9C93-C1E5-4F3D-AE6A-89BC1292BA38-1649-000001606652FC1F.jpeg E4395C5E-AD23-4F44-9837-A6E19502472B-1649-00000161DE01B42D.jpeg

    Well since we no long have are red eagle Phoenix

    I guess swoop is next no more purple eagle I did find a replacement for him though
     
  39. Sauteed Onion

    Sauteed Onion Lore Keeper
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  40. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    I wish Stratics had an ignore option for people like this. Or at least some kind of title system that said things under their name like, "PvM'er," "Good PvP'er," "Bad PvP'er," "PvM'er & Bad PvP'er" (Maz lol), etc; and the amount that you could post on PvP matters was based on how good you were at PvP (or whether you pvp at all); instead of things like "stratics veteran."
     
  41. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    Does anyone remember when they improved the rune books? made them look nicely more detailed, completely within the classic uo style, and people complained and they ended up reverting them...
    It will be a real shame if the SJWs win again.

    Man i really loved those new runebooks...
     
  42. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Stratics Forum Moderator
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    Stratics does have an ignore option. Click the person's name on one of their posts and this comes up:

    Untitled.png
     
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  43. Victim of Siege

    Victim of Siege Crazed Zealot
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    Hey!! that option isn't there when i click your name!! :p


    upload_2017-6-19_19-46-43.png
     
  44. skett

    skett Journeyman
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    Well so much for getting the old Phoenix back

    Maybe they will change the color at least

    She did say the artist can fix them looking like the rest at the spawns


    I guess barneys next to appear in uo
     
  45. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Next vanity mount on the uo store next to the lasher.

    Although credit where credit is due... Windrunner pretty awesome looking
     
  46. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Stratics Forum Moderator
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    The ignore feature is set so that it's impossible to ignore moderators and administrators. We need to be able to send people infraction PM's, and if they ignored us it would make it impossible to give them infractions or suspensions/bans. A forum poster discovered and exploited that a year or two ago. Which is why it was changed to be the way it is now :)

    That was certainly an interesting discovery though, it went from just another infraction to "um... why is it impossible for any of us to do anything to this person's account?" They were pretty clever figuring out that loophole.
     
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  47. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    sweet thanks
     
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  48. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Inquisitor
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    Or "Cheater" so their input could just be ignored on all matters.
     
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  49. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    What do you consider a "cheater"? Who are your characters? What shard do you play? And how do you think you would fare in UO if players didn't "cheat"?