*Darien_Kane* Hello everyone, and welcome to the second Stratics sponsored Dev Debate. During the course of this conference, we will be discussing the complex matters of War in MMORPGs and its implications -- topics such as territory and resources are sure to be brought up as well.

*Darien_Kane* Today we have Serafina, Atriarch

*Darien_Kane* Savant, from Fallen Age

*Darien_Kane* Fear, from Battle Vortex

*Darien_Kane* And Lord Hades, guildmaster of the Lord of the Dead

*Darien_Kane* Unfortunately, we will have to start without Ashen Temper. We hope he will be able to join us soon.

*Darien_Kane* Our special guests for today were specifically selected for their views and opinions on these issues, and as the conference goes on, we will see what each of them has to say. At one point in the chat, all of you will be able to ask your own questions, which I will paste in this channel (read: NO PRIVATE MESSAGING OUR GUESTS PLEASE).

*Darien_Kane* Reminding you that there is unmoderated chat going on in #devchat, where you can discuss the event with other spectators as it unfolds.

*Darien_Kane* So what do you guys think about the way mass PvP has been handled lately? And more important, do you think the new generation of upcoming titles will be able to do a significantly better job on this area? This is just an overview to get us started.

*Lord-Hades* I think the first generation games have not done enough to promote pvp whether its solo encounters or group combat

*Lord-Hades* they have taken an approach of PvP being a side addition to the game rather than a core aspect

*Lord-Hades* to this day they are still trying to figure out how to balance it and failing miserably

*Lord-Hades* done

*Savant* PvP, whether on a massive scale or not, is an integral part to any game -- It provides an added element of excitement, "the unknown," and danger. The real issue boils down to *doing PvP right*. Nailing down the mechanics needed to make sure the PvP enjoyment of one doesn't come at the expense of another. Once you have the mechanics behind it to ensure (as best you can) the "grief factor" - that's when you can get into the meat

*Savant* I have no comment on the current or past status PvP other than to say it has much room for improvement. Whether upcoming titles will be able to do a significantly better job in this area remains to be seen -- but most definitely seem to be trying. Many, like Fallen Age is, are being designed with PvP as part of the design - not just an afterthought (with the grief factor mentioned earlier in thought). This is definitely a ste

*Savant* Done. :*

*Fear_BV* Handled lately? We still have a long way to go. The biggest issue for me would be latency and keeping others in the fight. I am looking forward to seeing what is out there with the new titles. I think all of them present good and bad areas with Mass PvP. We have a long way to go I think.

*Serafina* sorry, got called away for a moment, hello all

*Serafina* I'm going to say something about mass pvp that is a bit controversial... it is the imbalances that make it fun, not the balance.

*Serafina* I think there is a confusion between balance and equality that is often talked about when addressing mass pvp.

*Serafina* Equality is not desirable in pvp.

*Serafina* What makes it fun is the ability to strategize.

*Darien_Kane* Just on cue, Ashen.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Been here a few... just was waiting to get "voiced" =-)

*Serafina* I'm coming from a different background than some of the people here. I don't believe that the person is the biggest and baddest should win. The person who uses the proper strategy is the one who should win. Me, as a designer, only can provide tools for strategy.

*Serafina* In the current crop of games, those tools are different... and I think that is what this debate is mostly about.. what tools are important for mass pvp. What do you need to support mass pvp?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I'll take you up on that one...

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Firstly, I think you need something to "fight for".

*Ashen_Temper_WP* For instance, land, resources, etc... something tangible

*Ashen_Temper_WP* That is one of the reasons that feuds between guilds in some other games just continue... there is no true way to "keep score"

*Ashen_Temper_WP* But I'll go into that more during the talk... that is just an overview on my personal views of it

*Serafina* I actually think there is more to fight for than goods

*Darien_Kane* I'm sure you all have much to say on the matter of resources in the mass PvP context. I've talked to many people who, just like Ashen, believe that any large-scale PvP system that does not entail acquisition of resources is doomed to fail… simply because there is no motivation for players to get themselves involved with it.

*Serafina* Players have attachments to names, honors, titles, etc.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* True, Serafina, but, at the same time, how do you obtain these "honors"? By slaying the same NPC over and over? By killing an enemy that "rez"s every time he dies?

*Serafina* I think the bond with a player and their guild or group is actually a stronger bond than with their loot

*Ashen_Temper_WP* territory is not "loot"... at least not in my opinion

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP.. if that is how your game works, then I guess so.

*Serafina* but with the new crop of games, the way people move up in notoriety have more varaition

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Such as...?

*Serafina* I'll take UO for example since that game is already out.

*Fear_BV* Loot is a very big issue with a large portion of people out there, I personally like the recognition of those around me. Whether it is the Fear, respect or just that the name is widely known.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* How so?

*Serafina* You can become known for more than just killing in UO

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I know, I did it in UO, actually... I ran a Player Run Town on UO-Pac

*Ashen_Temper_WP* and a player run shard newspaper: The Pacific Express

*Fear_BV* And I am. But the fact that people are affraid of me, or respect me, or even those that just know who I am makes me feel better then taking their stuff.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Mind you, that was a few years ago and haven't played UO since

*Lord-Hades* an item based pvp game is shallow..give the players the ability to create their supplies for war..but make the land resources to make them limited

*Serafina* In AC, there is a guy who is popular for the poetry he writes and sells.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I never said Items... I said territory and resources... totally different thing

*Serafina* My point is that there is more than just loot to be attached to

*Ashen_Temper_WP* True, I thought we were talking about entire guilds, not just individuals, though.

*Serafina* although, loot is compelling, it isn't the only thing

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Question... you keep on bringing up "loot"... can I ask who you are referring to that supports loot as a basis for "fame"?

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP.. that's a good point. I'm coming from a different style of game. SB is mostly players versus players. In Atriarch, it is can be pvp or an individual can build up an NPC army

*Serafina* so from my point of view, I'm thinking of large scale battles of more than just players.

*Lord-Hades* mass pvp tends to revolve around players not npcs for the most part...in my view

*Ashen_Temper_WP* It works that way in Shadowbane also, but with a different twist

*Serafina* ok, I'll narrow my focus then to mass pvp with strictly players.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* You brought up the notiery in UO... what exactly did you like about it?

*Serafina* I'm using notoriety not in the stat sense. I'm using it as the way the word is actually used in real life

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Yes, but you said "Take UO for example" or something to that effect... what did you mean by that?

*Serafina* hmm... ok, this is what I mean... Land, resources and things like notoriety, fame, honor are *all* things worth fighting for in mass pvp.

*Serafina* You said how do you gain those honors and you used the example of killing things. I said, there are other ways in games to gain honors.

*Serafina* I used the UO trade skill as an example.

*Savant* The importance of mass PvP is that there is more than just a singular goal. Not /just/ territory, not /just/ resources, not /just/ infamy... but a combination of all those -- and then some.

*Serafina* yes, Savant

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Very true, Savant

*Fear_BV* I'll give you that one.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* My point was this

*Ashen_Temper_WP* In games currently out (with the exception of AC which I haven't played), there was no way for guilds to truly show they were better than others besides just fighting

*Lord-Hades* AC doesn't have that ability either

*Ashen_Temper_WP* For instance, in UO there was a guild called the KGB and another called the Fallen Lords

*Ashen_Temper_WP* They both fought bitterly and claimed to win... but there was no way to "prove it"

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... I'm confused about what you think. Is fighting to prove you are better good or bad?

*Savant* Fighting is different for each player. Our goal is to simply provide them with the mechanics to achieve those goals fairly.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Depends on your cause. The KGB didn't fight to be the "top dog". They fought for "good". They wanted to make the lands safe for "newbies" and those that didn't want to fight.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* The Fallen Lords, on the other hand, fought for domination.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Neither could win, though, because death had no consequences for the most part.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* The KGB couldn't "vanquish" evil because they just respawn back and taken items were easy to replace

*Ashen_Temper_WP* The same was true for the reverse with the Fallen Lords. There was no way to attain "domination".

*Lord-Hades* To answer the original question a game must allow the ability to acquire resources through conquest, construction, or otherwise but be limited in nature so that it makes them valuable so that people want them and will fight over them

*Savant* I wouldn't say vanquish in regards to pvp -- The opponents always need a way to eventually "fight back" or you end up with a ruling guild that dominates until new servers open up.

*Savant* And then the process repeats.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* true... but human nature usually solves that one

*Darien_Kane* Thats a good point, Savant. It is sometimes overlooked by modern companies.

*Fear_BV* Revenge is often sweeter then the original dispute.

*Savant* "Vanquish" is so... final. :*

*Serafina* Lord-Hades... my point is that people will fight whether you give them something to fight over or not

*Ashen_Temper_WP* vanquishing a "guild" and vanquishing a Character is entirely different

*Ashen_Temper_WP* If you could fight to destroy that guild's "charter", then you could win... I was not referring to Character Death

*Lord-Hades* I agree with ashen because fighting for things of little value, meaning, or consequences if you lose bring on an endless tit for tat parade

*Lord-Hades* If I lost an ore mine I needed to produce weapons..i'd fight hard to get it back for example

*Savant* "Crushing" your opponent and giving him the opportunity to reclaim his status don't need to be mutually exclusive though, Hades.

*Serafina* Lord-Hades... yes, exactly. However, if another guild raided my guild housel, then I would fight a 100x harder to get that guild house back than I probably would for the mine I lost.

*Savant* You can set the stakes high -- but you just need to keep in mind that the higher up you go on the totem pole, there's more people wanting to knock you down.

*Serafina* The reason is because players have stronger attachments to certain things.

*Lord-Hades* if the game provides you an easier way to produce the weapons without the mine then I would agree

*Serafina* I think the guild bond is stronger than that of certain tangible properties in a game.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Very true... that is why I referred to territory. Territory held by a Guild.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* No one person can hold a territory.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* of course, overtaking a territory should not be something simplistic and easily done.

*Lord-Hades* the question we're debating though is acquisition of resources promoting mass combat Savant..not pride or status

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... in Atriarch one person or a guild can hold territory. However, I agree with you that guild ownership of property is more compelling.

*Serafina* I think most things done as a group are more compelling.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* You've got me on Atriarch... I'm talking about MMORPGs in general

*Serafina* Lord-Hades.. but the acquisition of territory or resources is all about pride and status

*Darien_Kane* I think we all agree with that Serafina.. from what I understood, Ashen, Savant and Hades are saying that material gains is what CREATES the bond, and also motivation for further endeavors.

*Serafina* Land is what determines your status throughout history

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Yes

*Serafina* Darien_Kane... if material is what creates the bond, then guilds would not be in more than one game.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Very true... we have a HUGE community built up around Shadowbane, guilds and all. Yet they have no "material" gain yet.

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP.. exactly... LOL! And you can already see guilds and factions between games fighting. No land there to win yet?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* True, but what will keep them together once the game is out?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* A guild that has somewhere to call home

*Serafina* Ownership in the game.

*Serafina* exactly

*Ashen_Temper_WP* lands, buildings, NPC Guards, Guild Crests

*Savant* And that's the point. Communities are fine, they exist everywhere... but it's "ownership" that will keep them going.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Something to prove that they made a mark

*Darien_Kane* We finally achieve enlightenment. Bond is created naturally within a group, but material rewards is what keeps it going. Is that it?

*Serafina* Land, loot, stuff... all that is very important. I agree, but it is the process of running cities, governments, fighting, defenind them.. all of that that keeps guilds in a game.

*Lord-Hades* ownership is wonderful but if everyone can own something is not worth much...resources have to be uber or limited as well as needed to promote conflict

*Ashen_Temper_WP* true, but you can't defend or run them if you don't have them =-)

*Lord-Hades* I destroy guild A when I take away their ability to make war and leave them helpless and whining

*Savant* Human nature takes care of the bonding and creation of groups and subgroups... Your mechanics are what will keep those bonds strong and lasting for a long time.

*Savant* Especially in a virtual environment.

*Serafina* Lord-Hades.. well, that is another question entirely on itself. Is losing fun? How do you make mass pvp worth it for the loser?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I'll agree to that, Savant

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Make it so the loser can still become a winner

*Lord-Hades* in a dynamic environment the vanquished tend to link up with a strong power to seek revenge or justice

*Savant* Losing doesn't necessarily have to mean *losing* -- it simply needs to mean a setback.

*Lord-Hades* they would be neutralized and need to rebuild or enlist a stronger supporter in their cause

*Lord-Hades* someones rebuilding time depends on other player support, game resources to rebuild, and the ability of the enemy to continue to harrass them

*Darien_Kane* Still on the same thread of thought, what's to say on Unlimited Resources? One could rationalize that, since resources are infinite and equally distributed throughout the world, there is no point in confrontation; there is always enough for everyone. In RL, most of the great historic wars that players dream about re-creating are fought based on economic purposes.

*Darien_Kane* Is it possible that the ONLY way to have truly meaningful wars is to implement limited resources?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* no, there is Permanent Death... but I don't think anyone is quite ready to tackle that one yet =-)

*Lord-Hades* then you have what we term 1st generation games that are currently in place where there is never a clear winner

*Lord-Hades* unless you drive them to quit the game

*Lord-Hades* because they tire of dying

*Savant* Infinite resources does not mean over-abundance of resources -- It simply means different avenues or opportunities to overcoming a setback. It's a fine line -- but you definitely can't make it finite, or else you run into the uber-guild problem.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Personally, I believe that the current generation of games weren't made to support PvP for the most part; much less GvG (guild vs. guild)

*Fear_BV* No, but it is nice if fallen enemies don't keep coming back to the battle over and over.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* *remembers town fights in UO*

*Lord-Hades* yeah... recall ultimately messed up battles when the same person kept coming back over and over

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Currently, though, until anyone comes up with a better idea, it seems limiting resources is the way to go... that and make territories mean more. In UO you could show up anywhere in the world in a matter of moments as long as you have the right runes

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Do any of you think that Perma-Death is a good way to accomplish this*

*Ashen_Temper_WP* ?

*Lord-Hades* in an unlimited resource world losing stuff in a battle is no big deal nor does it set anyone back for long....restock and rejoin..whoever does it the fastest..wins

*Savant* No.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* What about you Hades?

*Lord-Hades* No the internet will never be lag free and people will be using dialups for years to come still...anything could happen to cause a death there

*Fear_BV* No, I don't really like the idea of starting over from scratch as a result of a "bad war day".

*Savant* Perma-Death literally means losing. I don't play games (and the time investment required in MMORPG's) to completely lose. Your house and car aren't repossessed if you lose a 5 dollar hand of blackjack...

*Ashen_Temper_WP* and what about bugs that could insta-kill?

*Lord-Hades* limiting resources is the most realistic and safest way to defeat an opponent by taking them away

*Ashen_Temper_WP* And isn't that the main goal here... to make something that is fun to play... not work

*Lord-Hades* so far all the games to date eventually make it a chore to even play so I agree..more fun is better

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Exactly, take EQ for example

*Serafina* Economy and resources in an mmorpg is a big issue, because things don't work like they do in real life.

*Savant* I'm not saying creating PermaDeath is impossible... but the system needs to be designed around it, just like PvP.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I played with a few friends but... well, I powerleveled for a few days.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Because of that, I couldn't "group" with my friends because of Level Restrictions... to me, that took some of the fun out of it

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Neither does death ingame, Serafina =-)

*Savant* Only because the game had a singular goal in mind at creation... hunting monsters and leveling. It's all in the design. * Serafina laughs.

*Serafina* I stay out of that topic.

*Lord-Hades* AC was like that too Ashen

*Darien_Kane* Just reminding those who just arrived that there is unmoderated chat going on in #devchat

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Which topic is that, exactly, Serafina? Usually the ones people stay away from are the most fun to talk about =-)

*Lord-Hades* the casual gamer is the one who suffered the most in those scenarios

*Lord-Hades* but they pay the bills:*

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Very true... making "leveling" hard and tedious keeps casual gamers away, unfortunately. That is one reason I think it should be easy to quickly level to a "playable" state where you can help benefit any group

*Darien_Kane* Another form of concrete reward that has been extensively suggested is NPC taxing. Now, most people agree that such means of easy, reliable income is rewarding enough; which brings other questions. Is NPC taxing a surefire way for older players to gain advantage over new players, eventually creating an aristocracy of wealthy, powerful characters that will be hard to defeat?

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... I think that a new player coming into a game should be useful to a group right away. Why make them have to work up to it, especially if the game centers around groups?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* That is exactly what I said.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* In UO you had to hit "training dummies", in EQ you had to stay in the same level range as your friends... to me, that isn't fun

*Serafina* ah, thought you said "level up to a playable state"

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I don't pay $10 or so a month to set up a macro to hit something so I can level quickly and be in a playable state

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I was referring to EQ and UO

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... ah, ok

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I am not talking about the game mechanics of Shadowbane, just to get that clear. I am talking about the current crop of games and how I think they could be improved.

*Lord-Hades* npc taxing would benefit those who have the "ability" to control or take control of a town...it could increase the coffers for those groups that are strong enough to take it

*Lord-Hades* but then money would actually have to mean somethin then wouldn't it?:*

*Darien_Kane* How would you make sure that the constant flow of income didn't shatter balance among players? Measures like defense buildings and upkeep have been suggested as a money sink, for example.

*Savant* You need many money sinks.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Very true

*Savant* Money needs to be as important as an item economy.

*Fear_BV* Yea, I think money sinks have proven themselves thus far.

*Savant* And the two need to exist, separate of one another - the two economies.

*Lord-Hades* yes...the war machine for massive combat would have to be pretty expensive to start, replace upon loss, or maintanace costs

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Money sinks such as Building and Item upkeep costs, training costs, etc, are a good start... but you have to keep the prices flexible depending on how the ingame economy is at that point

*Serafina* Then there is the players tendencies to horde.

*Savant* Horde money or items? :)

*Serafina* Both

*Serafina* Players and Guilds love to collect stuff. The one who dies with the most toys wins.

*Savant* Regular money sinks, and item decay.

*Serafina* That can play havoc on and economy. Yes, decay works to an extent.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* also, don't make a game so item specific.

*Savant* Hording to a certain extent is necessary because it leads to that ever-important sense of ownership in these games... it just needs to be regulated.

*Savant* Hording is a bad word -- Maybe "having a few backups"

*Ashen_Temper_WP* In an Item-based game such as EQ, losing certain things could be earth shattering... but in UO it was too easy to replace things... I'm sure there is a good balance between those two.

*Lord-Hades* a backup supply is also useful to get back into action fast but by making it excessive we can get to a near unlimited resource state of affairs

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... well, I don't know if I agree with that. Part of specific items is the fun of saying you have that specific item. It can add scarcity to your treasure chest of things you are fighting for.

*Fear_BV* hehe few thousand.

*Savant* Having some cash in your coffers, having a few backup items... these are all necessary because it adds to that sense of accomplishment.

*Serafina* Specific items are definitely something worth fighting for.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I didn't say don't have any... I said don't make your level revolve around them.

*Serafina* Who wants to launch a mass pvp attack on another guild for the Almighty Castle of Genericness?

*Savant* If it meant doubling my land size, I would. ;)

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I agree... it isn't the castle, it's the land I would now own

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Let me ask you this

*Serafina* yes, ok.. I can see that

*Serafina* land is definitely imporantant, especially when building up empires

*Lord-Hades* the land...the tax base...the resources on that land..and a transportation corridor...yeah i'd take it

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Does it seem fair that a Level 30 Character with a Sword of Vanquishing should be able to kill a Level 70 Character who has much more sword-skill 99 times out of 100?

*Lord-Hades* a level 30 shouldn't be able to take out a lvl 70 without backup

*Ashen_Temper_WP* (but a normal sword)

*Lord-Hades* but the lvl 70 shouldn't be a 2 week wonder with a few days off to get to that level either

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... yes, I think that is fair.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* And how is that fair, Serafina?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* What is more important? The Item or the Skills a Character has?

*Savant* Neither -- and both. It's about balance.

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... well, ok, I take that back.... swords are not a good example.

*Serafina* Someone who in real life who is a master in swords will definitely take out someone with a better sword. However, they won't necessarily take someone out with a gun

*Serafina* That's my point. In Indiana Jones... he just shoots the guy with the fancy swords. If he went up against him directly, he would have lost.

*Lord-Hades* that creates a whole different set of combat dynamics...don't fight the guy with the gun...go get your own ...make it,buy it, or steal it

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Okay, let me ask this then

*Serafina* ask away

*Ashen_Temper_WP* If you have an Uzi but don't know much about guns (say you're Level 10) where I have a 6 shooter but extremely proficient with it (Level 50), who do you think should win?

*Serafina* The guy with the Uzi

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Really? Do you have any experience with guns?

*Serafina* unless you are watching it on TV in which case the Uzi wouldn't hit anyone and the six-shooter would kill 7 people

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... yes

*Ashen_Temper_WP* A well placed proficient shooter could kill someone in one shot... someone who sprays a weapon and doesn't know much about it would hit a lot of air

*Ashen_Temper_WP* You can just say Ashen =-)

*Savant* Real life analogies aren't really my cup of tea when it comes to comparing them to game mechanics. Simply put: There needs to be the opportunity (no matter how small) for anyone to defeat anyone. Equipment should be a factor. Skill/Level should be a factor. Strategy should be a factor.

*Serafina* You didn't say in your scenario that the 6-shooter was "well-placed"

*Serafina* That makes a huge difference

*Savant* You can't dissect combat in terms of knife vs. gun because our games don't work that way.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I said an extremely proficient person against someone who basically just learned to shoot

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Hence the Level 10, Level 50 example

*Serafina* someone who just learned to shoot versus a master 6-shooter? still close if they are head to head. If you include positioning, then the 6-shooter

*Ashen_Temper_WP* So why would it be different in game with swords?

*Serafina* because swords take more skill than guns

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Should owning a superior weapon but by far not the superior skills win out in most cases?

*Serafina* It depends how you use that weapon. That's why strategy is important. The kinds of weapons are what determine whether or not the game balances.

*Savant* You're looking for a simple answer to a not-so-simple question. The guy with the flaming sword of doom should do a lot more damage when he is able to hit you, but the guy with the dented rapier should be able to hit you often for much smaller damage. There's no simple answer: "skill or equipment"

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Very true, Savant

*Lord-Hades* the right form of balance depends on what the game will support ...items or skills

*Savant* the right game will support both :)

*Serafina* exactly... that's why I keep harping on the class of weapons (or magic) made available to players.

*Darien_Kane* Ok, moving on

*Darien_Kane* What about time zones and player availability? Any serious system that encourages player wars will also cause new methods of aggression to be employed. This has been done in previous titles and will, most likely, become a popular practice: to time mass attacks when the other side is in numerical disadvantage.

*Lord-Hades* its the old quality vs quantity question

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Depends on what you are referring to... are you talking about overtaking your enemies territory?

*Savant* Yeah, depends on the context.

*Darien_Kane* Since all players involved in a war will hardly live in the same time zone, territorial wars have the potential to degenerate into out-of-character backstabbing - unless certain tools are provided to counter this technique.

*Darien_Kane* Yes, territory, for example.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Very true, "seiges" should take more than 10 minutes... more like 24+ hours (real time)

*Darien_Kane* What would you implement in order to avoid this kind of behavior (ex: automated defenses, NPCs, etc..)?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* If I go to sleep owning a town just to wake up the next morning to find it overtaken... well, basically that sucks

*Fear_BV* Yes, when you get into war of that scale, and terriory it is 24X7 job.

*Lord-Hades* I would give modifers to defenders holding a castle, house, or other piece of property

*Lord-Hades* and allow some smart npc guards perhaps

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Very true... holding an area is easier than taking it

*Serafina* I guess that depends if the war is 100% player driven

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... in SB, can one player take over the controls for another players character while they are offline?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Yes, there is a chain of command

*Fear_BV* I like the idea of NPC assistance because it is hard to do things for 24 hours a day.

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP.. ok, so a player can log off and give their character over to someone else?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* No

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Nevermind, missed that point

*Savant* What we've done is: While guild territories are "allied," individuals are each still unique individuals. What this means is, everyone has his own territory but they are all grouped together. You need to conquer each one individually -- and it's the job of your AI and your guild members to defend your territory when you are not there.

*Savant* ...or, aid you in revolting against your conquerer to get back your territory.

*Serafina* I don't know how other games are doing it, in Atriarch we mitigate the time zone problem with the fact that you can have armies that include npc's

*Lord-Hades* if guildmater bob logs off for the night the next guy in the chain should be able to man the catapults and order the npcs around

*Serafina* also, your player character stays online to defend/raid or whatever if you want it to

*Ashen_Temper_WP* True, but NPCs (at this stage of the game) cannot outplay a Player Character

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... that's true in any game I would think.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* If you have a Level 30 PC and a Level 30 NPC with the exact same skills, items, etc, the PC will win

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... if that were the case, then no one would ever need to die.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* And what happens to these NPCs when the PC dies?

*Lord-Hades* yes NPC's are like support players who are good for certain things (like area effect damage from the castle walls) but in 1 on 1 aren't generally too bright

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... they have their commands. They become loyal to the next guildmaster in line or to the heir. They follow through with them in some cases and not in others... it depends on the situation.

*Serafina* AI can be as bright or as stupid as we make it. The issue is getting the right mix.,

*Serafina* If designed to be, an AI character would kick the butt of player... why? because it cheats.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Cheat... how so?

*Serafina* I use the word cheat for an npc to mean they know more than a player would because a developer lets them.

*Lord-Hades* you mean have better spells or defenses then

*Ashen_Temper_WP* know more such as...?

*Lord-Hades* godlike npcs then

*Ashen_Temper_WP* They have better skills and items than the PC equivelent to their Level? ala EQ?

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP.. I didn't say that. * Serafina nods head.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* That is why I asked...

*Lord-Hades* I don't want to have to call up the 5th batallion to defeat a super sized npc when its players i'm after

*Ashen_Temper_WP* that is just giving the NPC an unfair advantage... it isn't making them SMARTER, which is the key thing

*Serafina* Let me clarify something here. Player armies are great. The question is how do you deal with different time zones and people not being online 24/7. My answer was it helps to have npc's be allowed into your army.

*Serafina* To clarify, I'm not saying that npc's are the preferred way to go, just an option.

*Darien_Kane* Well, its the time everyone loves. I'll take a few questions from fans now. Private Message ME (ME does not equal GUESTS), with your question now.

*Darien_Kane* *SB|Goldenbeard* How do the developers intend to deal with teh effect of latency on the overall PvP experiance?

*Serafina* First of all, you don't rely on twitch movement like you would in a first-person shooter.

*Savant* Latency is really only an issue (in regards to pvp) if your system is twitch based. Until broadband is more widespread, developing a twitch based system is something we won't be doing.

*Serafina* These are persistent worlds and will be around (hopefully) for a long time. Things that take time a long time to build should also take a long time to destroy or take over.

*Lord-Hades* 10-15% of internet users have broadband access in their homes

*Ashen_Temper_WP* First way is to make fights last more than 10 seconds... if you're near equal levels, you shouldn't be able to kill the other player with one hit... also, having a "generic auto attack" that keeps going even when you're not hitting the "Blade Weaver Attack" button... and making packet sizes as small as possible.

*Savant* That's nowhere near enough, Hades.

*Lord-Hades* what I meant was its not enought to have a game where the fastest connection wins

*Savant* nod, indeed

*Fear_BV* Agreed.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Very true... a player with an OC3 in his office shouldn't hit any faster than someone with a 56k

*Serafina* In my opinion, even if everyone did have a fast enough connection, the kinds of games were are building, the mass combat should still take a decent amount of time.

*Lord-Hades* try playin ac on a 28.8 it stinks:*

*Serafina* If I want a fast-twitch game where reaction time was everything, then I'd go play CS or Quake

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Or Unreal Tournament =-)

*Serafina* Ashen_Temper_WP... of course

*Lord-Hades* it seems to me..having played nwn, dso, uo, and now ac that each game i've played the actual time it takes to defeat someone has decreased

*Serafina* Lord-Hades... the macro programs are getting better ;-)

*Lord-Hades* part of that was the real-time element though moving from turn based

*Ashen_Temper_WP* that and a lot of balancing wasn't done

*Darien_Kane* *Nix-* ask them with games that have so many character possibilities (such as shadowbane) how they could make sure there is no one (uber) class/race combination?

*Serafina* You start by adding aliens to your game. * Serafina laughs.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Hmmm, I would have to use the Rock, Paper, Scissors argument here =-) Make certain templates viable in one situation but not as viable in another. Paper beats a Rock (which I never understood) but Scissors beats Paper and a Rock beats Scissors.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Of course, if you have a Group or a Guild, you may want to have Rock, Paper, and Scissors all in your group =-)

*Darien_Kane* *Severian* Is there anything that can be done in future generations of MMOGs to significantly increase roleplay, or will it always be as it is currently - provide as much content as you can and leave it to the players? Is there someonthing functional that could be done which hasn't been tried yet?

*Serafina* The percentage of roleplaying decreases as more people enter a game.

*Savant* Indeed. Player run (staff supported) events. Staff events. Plots unique to each server. Meta plots. Unique SPC merchants selling unseen wares. There are infinite possibilities.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Personally, I think you should promote rp, not enforce it. For instance, one of our tactics is the Feature Character system

*Serafina* I think it depends on the size and type of game.

*Lord-Hades* you can't force people to roleplay..you can only provide them the tools to do so if they choose

*Ashen_Temper_WP* It is more of the "lead by the carrot" rather than "beat them with the stick" tactic

*Serafina* I think AC does an excellent job every month with their events, but that doesn't really get people to roleplay more.

*Savant* Roleplay is more personal, not just listening to someone narrate a story (ala AC's meta plot). You need a much more personal touch to get people involved.

*Serafina* I think rewarding people for roleplaying is a good way to inspire more roleplaying.

*Savant* And like Ashen said, it can't be enforced (unless you open up specific RP Servers.. ahem) -- it needs to be something you encourage.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* So our other option is to offer some kind of reward. So how do you do that, with such a subjective element of gameplay? Our answer is the FC program. Feature Characters exist in our World for one reason and one reason only -- to further the backstory. This is Roleplaying. They are an element of our playing experience that has been added grant more enjoyment to the players who want to embrace roleplaying (and storyline) in our game.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* So our other option is to offer some kind of reward. So how do you do that, with such a subjective element of gameplay? Our answer is the FC program. Feature Characters exist in our World for one reason and one reason only -- to further the backstory. This is Roleplaying. They are an element of our playing experience that has been added grant more enjoyment to the players who want to embrace roleplaying (and storyline) in our game.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* whoops =-) Just read the second one =-)

*Savant* Ashen stutters sometimes =P

*Fear_BV* hehe

*Lord-Hades* its the mad dog he's been drinkin:*

*Ashen_Temper_WP* be ready for more... lol

*Ashen_Temper_WP* This is one area that isn't quite so subjective. Using a hockey stick in a basketball game isn't proper. Why? It breaks the rules. Every game has rules, and the price of admission to participate with the Feature Characters isn't high --all we ask is that, at least to some small degree, you don't break the fiction of our universe. You don't even have to roleplay. Just don't choose a character (or guild) name that's obviously over the edge.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Unfortunately, there is no "Roleplayer Rulebook". Everyone has their own idea of Roleplaying. That is why it would be hard to "enforce"

*Serafina* The truth is, the smaller the game and closer the community, the more roleplaying there is. The bigger you get the harder it is.

*Serafina* If you want a 100% roleplaying community, then staying in smaller groups is the best way to go.

*Savant* I think the general concensus on what roleplay is - is not breaking the suspension of disbelief (ie not talking about football on top) -- Unfortunately, that is equally as annoying to enforce as is forcing people to play your game a certain way. Opening up RP servers is my personal choice.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Our Feature Program isn't geared to find "people who actively roleplay." That's admittedly too subjective. This reward is for the players who aren't going out of there way to make it a point of NOT roleplaying."

*Lord-Hades* all a game can do is provide tools and an outlet for people to roleplay...and a lot of effort goes into them doing that

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I think we beat this one to death... next?

*Darien_Kane* *Lyta-OAC* Going back to the discussion earlier about the problem with server-domination by one particular guild. Surely when it gets to that state, the only reasonable course of action is to restart the server from scratch?

*Serafina* Ashen... good answer :-)

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Hey, she just said Ashen this time! w00t! =-)

*Savant* Design your system well enough to where you don't get to that state. It's not as impossible as it sounds.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* That and human nature will settle that for the most part in numerous ways:

*Lord-Hades* No.. a pvp based game should not police the other players by code or the godswitch...the community should police itself

*Ashen_Temper_WP* 1. When a large force overruns something, others will band together to overthrow them

*Lord-Hades* if you've had enough of the bully...unite and overthrow them

*Ashen_Temper_WP* 2. The large force itself will usually topple due to internal conflicts

*Serafina* I think the worst thing you could do in a mass pvp game is to tell your players... oh, I'm sorry, even though you win we are just going to take it back.

*Fear_BV* Yea, folks never rule forever. People will either band together, or the rulers get bored and moves on.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* 3. It's hard to run an entire server by yourself =-)

*Savant* or the people being constantly ruled quit playing your game.

*Serafina* In a land mass the size of Atriana, we know that players will bring dominate some areas, but certainly not the entire globe.

*Savant* early UO was very indicitave that you can't just leave mass pvp to the morals of the players... the grief minority will kill any sense of community and "fun"

*Serafina* I think I mentioned something earlier. You have to make losing fun for the loser as well as the winner. Becoming a slave isn't much fun.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* One of the reasons in UO that happened, in my opinion, is players were not territorial based... you could be in Shame one moment and Magincia in the next

*Serafina* Constantly getting beat down in a game with no chance for getting up is not fun.

*Lord-Hades* early uo proved that killing players was the fastest way to get rich and buy that castle too

*Ashen_Temper_WP* It's hard to hunt down a force that can move across the server in an instant

*Lord-Hades* recall was a bad idea for UO I agree..I could be anywhere in a blink of an eye

*Darien_Kane* *AT|Elric* If you start to recieve complaints of people being killed over and over and over are you going to do anything about it like UO did (by implementing the muderer/bounty system) or are you going to stick to your vision and basically let them know that that is a byproduct of the type of gaming environment?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I played UO for 3+ years... I've seen many large forces come only to crumble under their own weight

*Savant* We have mechanics in place that allows you to play a "killer" if that's what you so want, but it comes with some *severe* penalties and not at the expense of your victim -- but at your own expense.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* The key is to make some areas safer than others. For instance, in Shadowbane, we have GM Run cities called Safeholds where you cannot PvP. Also, Guild Owned Lands will be safer to hunt in (except during seiges =-) because you do have NPC Guards and other guild mates in the area.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* In UO, the hard part about getting "revenge" is basically what I said above... it's hard to find someone who can recall all across the world in an instant

*Ashen_Temper_WP* look at Seige Perilous

*Ashen_Temper_WP* as compared to the other shards, that is

*Lord-Hades* other games tended to put the best resources in places of high risk..in a mainly no pvp world that's a bad idea...so instead..kill pvp with penalties? bad idea

*Savant* What it boils down to is the "grief player" needs to be restricted in order for the majority of your players to have a "fun" experience. It's not fun being killed repeatedly by the same person who has absolutely no consequence to worry about. We've simply added the element of severe consequence.

*Savant* PvP does not mean "Let's forget the implications of ruining the enjoyment of players who do not wish to participate", it means designing your system to support both playstyles without hampering them.

*Darien_Kane* *evilsputnick* Do you think it's possible to make MMORPG's enjoyable for the masses and the hardcore roleplayers?

*Savant* Yes. We have the luxury of separate mirrors of the same world -- It's time we take advantage of that, and that's what we plan to do.

*Serafina* I believe so, but we aren't there yet.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I think it would be extremely hard if not impossible for one game to encompass everything that everyone would like

*Serafina* Internet games are still mostly played by a relatively small group of people.

*Lord-Hades* again you can add content for roleplay but its up to the person to do it. you can add safe zones where non pvp people can gather resources risk free...and free for all zones where if you go there ..you pay the piper if you die

*Savant* There's no reason why we can't have an RP-Only server where there's additional staff on at all hours to encourage and foster that intense roleplaying experience for those players interested in doing so.

*Serafina* Games in general are still looked upon by the masses as a geeky sorta thing. I think that as games start to evolve and as internet games become more mainstream, that stigma will start to change.

*Serafina* And instead of game changing.... people's perception toward them will start to change.

*Savant* The games themselves will need to change as well.

*Serafina* ... and designing for casual and core gamers will become easier as the line between them grows thinner

*Serafina* Savant.. games are always changing.

*Serafina* The point I'm making is that some day games will replace movies and books as the chief form of entertainment I believe.

*Serafina* well.. and a few other things.

*Savant* I suppose that's subjective. In regards to MMORPG's, I don't see the changes in leaps and bounds that is needed to bring in new audiences.

*Serafina* but that just hasn't happened yet, but it will.

*Serafina* We don't need to change leaps and bounds to bring audiences. They are coming as part of the natural maturity of our industry.

*Serafina* and of course, Star Wars Galaxies will help

*Serafina* hehe

*Fear_BV* I wanna be a wookie!

*Savant* Like I said, subjective. Minor variations of the same basic game is not enough, in my eyes, to broaden our audience.

*Serafina* The audience is growing with or without us.

*Darien_Kane* Well, it has been two fun hours of quality quarrel.. I think most of us won't be looking forward to hearing about mass PvP again in a while.

*Darien_Kane* I would like to thank all the fans that took their time to be here tonight

*Darien_Kane* And a special thanks to our guests for the awesome event

*Ashen_Temper_WP* l would have to say this... I would rather have a game that is done extremely well but only caters to a certain market rather than have a game that encompasses everything but isn't done as well

*Serafina* I completely agree.

*Savant* Unless the game that encompasses many different aspects is done extremely well. ;)

*Darien_Kane* Outstanding. We all agree. Group hug.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Truth be told, Savant, I doubt there will ever be a game like that

*Ashen_Temper_WP* can you think of any single player games that EVERYONE loves?

*Savant* Now now, we need to think outside the box, remember? :)

*Fear_BV* Yea, unless I write a game.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* haha!

*Savant* Hmmm... Civ 2?

*Lord-Hades* MOO II was my favorite stand alone game:*

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I mean, believe it or not, there are some people that don't like Diablo 2 or Baldur's Gate II

*Darien_Kane* Alpha Centauri all the way

*Savant* Well, you can't please *every single* person, but there are indeed games that captures the hearts/gaming hearts? of a *lot* more people than the "usual"

*Fear_BV* I like Gems myself.

*Darien_Kane* Heh

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Very true, Savant

*Savant* So all I'm saying is, it's indeed possible to make that sort of game in our genre too.

*Savant* It's just yet to be done. :)

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Of course, Shadowbane isn't out yet =-)

*Ashen_Temper_WP* hehe

*Serafina* hehe... we are all vaporware until we release

*Fear_BV* Hurry up with that would ya Ashen?

*Savant* ...must...resist

*g*

*Serafina* Ashen... where's my beta account?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Working on it... believe me, I want the game out just as much as everyone else =-)

*Ashen_Temper_WP* What, you didn't get it yet?

*Savant* I guess he wasn't one of the 50 people.

*grins*

*Fear_BV* Not as much as Kindred.. She is drooling all over my web site.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I'll just have to bring that up with Warden... hehe

*Lord-Hades* many people are looking forward to its release....myself included:*

*Savant* Joking aside, SB looks to be a step in the right direction of broadening the genre.

*Lord-Hades* just have mercy on those with dialups:*

*Ashen_Temper_WP* I think there are a few MMORPGs coming out that are taking the steps out in new directions...

*Savant* Like Fallen Age ;*

*Ashen_Temper_WP* hehe, I knew you couldn't resist!

*Fear_BV* OMG Shameless!

*Savant* You twisted my arm.

*Darien_Kane* We are all friends, no need to be shy

*Darien_Kane* Anyone else want to plug their games?

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Well, I need to take care of my 2yr old and wife! Talk to you all later and it was fun! Look me up for the next one!

*Savant* Have fun, Ashen. ;)

*Savant* I'll be in #devchat in a moment to field some questions about Fallen Age if any of you are interested.

*Fear_BV* ummm.. Yes, My game, called "Fear wins" is coming out soon.

*Darien_Kane* Thanks a lot, Ashen, Savant, Serafina, Fear and Hades. Great talking to you guys.

*Ashen_Temper_WP* Become a Hero, Raise an Army, Rule an Empire: Change the World! http://www.shadowbane.com and http://shadowbane.godgames.com/

*Ashen_Temper_WP* There's my plug =-)

*Lord-Hades* I've enjoyed the evening here with you guys tonight..cya all soon:*

*Serafina* Become a Hero, Raise an Army, Rule and Empire.. AND HAVE FUN! http://www.atriarch.com/ There my plug :-)

*Fear_BV* Thanks Darien!

*Darien_Kane* As always, unmoderated chat unfolds in #devchat for the stronger ones of us

*Darien_Kane* Thank YOU, Fear

*Fear_BV* http://www.battlevortex.com/ <--- Change your mind, make lots of cash, be everyones best friend.

Session Close: Sat Mar 10 16:40:10 2001

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